anti-renewables heat pump? Disadvantages and advantages

[Other]

Hello

Hi,

Do you have Wh counter on your installation.
In which region is your CAP installed?
How much did you pay for the installation?
With us apparently it is not profitable.

10000 euros installation, supplies, plus 30 to 35 kwh per day, for me the calculation is quick.
I will inquire to see if its electricity consumption has changed (to tell you the truth I find it huge anyway!)

A+

I can not make a comparison with you, on the one hand the heat pump is a home made construction, it works with the water of the earth and the way of consuming the current in our houses and different from your home, more winter lasts 5 months and in January it goes down to -25
a heated electric house the legal electric input is 200 single phase amperes in 220volts.
most of the houses are fully electric heated
the thermope reduces consumption and allows air conditioning in summer
(I think that many people, it is the air conditioner side which is interesting.
Currently my annual cost, in electricity is around $ 2000 that includes all heating, air conditioning and household electricity, hot water lighting, welder ect ..
we had an increase recently (fortunately it does not align with the barrel of crude ..
2005 annual invoice
26250kw cost 1896 $
billing is complex the cost of kw increases with daily consumption.

Andre

[PITMIX]

The new compressors run on hester oil because the new fluids no longer accept mineral oils. There is too great a risk of making the oil acid and of destroying the compressors.
Most often for commercial cold, Emkarate RL32CF or Mobil Arctic 22CC oil is used with R404a.

http://www.dehon.com/fr/index_fr.php?me ... 3&deroul=2

Akylbenzene type Zerol 150 oils which are intended for compressors using fluids type R22, R408a are used less and less.

[nightrow]

Hello,

All this interests me very closely (even if being rented, this does not concern me immediately).

From what I could gather as info on the subject, I would like to point out:

- PITMIX: You said that the cost of energy between electricity and gas is roughly equivalent (4c € per kwh), but did you take into account the efficiency of the heat pump of about 3 compared to your gas boiler which must turn to 0.95?

- fc89: an average daily consumption of 35kwh must be spread over the heating period, which is I think (to be confirmed) of 6 months / year, which costs 35 * 360 * 0,08 / 2 = 500 € / year, much more interesting than fuel oil.

- The main interest of the heat pump (which I did not see mentioned) is that it is one of the rare means of heating presenting an efficiency> 1, going even up to 5. If one includes all losses related to the production / transmission of electricity, we should not be far from 1 as efficiency.
In replacement of simple convectors, the interest is more than obvious (ecologically speaking).

After, it is sure that the investment is not worth it may be financially worth it (I have not done any calculations). I would still prefer to bet on the price per kWh of electricity than on the price of gas (indexed to the price of oil, which means that it may increase by an unknown factor in the next few decades).

I am also surprised to hear only about underfloor heating, the systems with "splits" seem cheaper to me to set up and more interesting because of the reduced inertia (just the air to be heated, not the mass floor).

[Christophe]

- The main interest of the heat pump (which I did not see mentioned) is that it is one of the rare means of heating presenting an efficiency> 1, even going up to 5.

1) You misread since this is what I noted in the 1st post of this subject precisely in replacement of the convector

2) You mix performance and COP ...

3) Our solar installation has a COP of 70... and she is 20 years old. A modern solar installation must have a COP around 100 ... so a COP of 5 is frankly not the panacea ...

If we include all the losses linked to the production / transport of electricity, we should not be far from 1 as yield.

I don't really know what you mean by it but if the electricity is produced from fuel oil (or worse from coal ... still largely common especially in Germany), an oil boiler is better than a heat pump...

In replacement of simple convectors, the interest is more than obvious (ecologically speaking)

We are 100% in agreement (on the other hand economically I am not even sure that the advantage is in the CAP given the delta in terms of initial investment and maintenance cost ...)

[bham]

I am also surprised to hear only about underfloor heating, the systems with "splits" seem cheaper to me to set up and more interesting because of the reduced inertia (just the air to be heated, not the mass floor).

Hi nightrow.
Between the splits and the heated floor, there are two different heating styles and therefore two different types of comfort:
- the underfloor heating offers, by its thermal inertia, a reserve of calories gradually restored in the habitat, it is a heating by radiation.
-the splits it is the heating of the air which causes a certain discomfort.
In between, it's like comparing the heat from a large stove to the heat from a hot air fan.
The heat of the first will penetrate you, warm your bones, especially if you are cold and wet. The heat of the second will heat you punctually as long as you are nearby. As soon as you move away from 1 m, you have the impression that the ventilator only blows cold air, the discomfort is certain.

[fc89]

Hello,

Nightrow wrote:

- fc89: an average daily consumption of 35kwh must be spread over the heating period, which is I think (to be confirmed) of 6 months / year, which costs 35 * 360 * 0,08 / 2 = 500 € / year, much more interesting than fuel oil.

The 35 kwh / day was valid for an outside temperature of 10 °, and 19 ° inside, for the EDF rate 0.08Euros you forget all the taxes, that is to say 12% of increase and I do not speak to you of the subscription .
Now add depreciation, 10000 Euros + interest.
Anyway I will come back to give you the annual balance sheet of the consumption, so that everyone can get an idea!
A+

[aidiv]

Hello

I do not know too prices of oil but if we take 2500L to € 0,68 / 1700 € The fact that fuel oil per year.

Considering that you heated 8 months of the year, it's 245 days.
What makes us 35x245 = 8575 kwh per year or € 8575x0,13 = 1115 EDF at full price.
If you have sufficient water reserves to be able to heat the night peak hours and restiuer when you need it it's 8575x0,043 = 369 € / year of electricity costs peak hours.
You is closer to € 1115 / 369 year or € / year?

I did not understand the calculation with fuel oil too well?
because for me 1 liter of fuel corresponds roughly to 10kwh so with 2500l this gives a power of 2500x10 = 25 000kwh for 1700 €
so if you heat 35kwh per day on 245 day: 8575kwh of heat (this does not change). then 0.68 € / 10kwh
therefore 0.68x3.5x245 = € 583 of fuel oil

correct me if it's not good

[PITMIX]

Hello
NIGHTROW and AIDIV 35kwh per day is the consumption report of a friend of FC89.
For the calculation of the electrical consumption I therefore took 35kwh per day over 8 months. It is a bit wide but it gives a heating period from October to May not necessarily incompatible with the temperatures that we encounter during this period of the year in the North of the Loire.

For the consumption of fuel oil, the same person who said he had a heat pump that consumes 35kWh / day previously had an annual consumption of 2500L of fuel oil. So I guess his house was heated over the same period.
So I estimated that this person should spend € 1700 on fuel a year, since 2500L at € 0,68 / L makes € 1700.
I did not do a power calculation since I used two figures given by the same person. One concerning the daily electrical consumption with the heat pump, the other the annual consumption with an oil boiler.
These figures also seem very interesting to me because they correspond to something concrete. It is not an estimate it is a statement of consumption.
The power and COP calculations are necessarily included since in both cases it is the energy consumption of the two machines on the same installation.
This is exactly the type of installation I wanted to do at home.
I realize thanks to these data that if the heat pump does not rotate during off-peak hours, the energy gain is not enormous. If we include the price of the investment it is not profitable.
When the heat pump turns at night during off-peak hours, it becomes much better. But the only way to run the heat pump during off-peak hours is to have an energy reserve.
In this case the only way to store heat in a central heating installation is to have a large reserve of water. So a balloon.

Another solution, the underfloor heating also offers an inertia which makes it possible to heat only during off-peak hours.
All this, of course, accompanied by good insulation of the house.

[Christophe]

I did not understand the calculation with fuel oil too well?
because for me 1 liter of fuel corresponds roughly to 10kwh so with 2500l this gives a power of 2500x10 = 25 000kwh for 1700 €
so if you heat 35kwh per day on 245 day: 8575kwh of heat (this does not change). then 0.68 € / 10kwh
therefore 0.68x3.5x245 = € 583 of fuel oil

correct me if it's not good

You are good even if the reasoning is bizarre.

Electric power is still the most expensive ... and that's normal because it is a thermodynamic and econological aberation to heat with an energy as "noble" as the electricity produced itself from "hot" with an efficiency of 30% ... even if heat pumps with a COP of 3 barely compensate for this shortcoming ...

In other words: heating with electricity is like having a boiler with an efficiency of 30% ... and as all energies are more or less aligned in price with raw energy ... we fall roughly on our feet on price ...

[PITMIX]

Where you are mistaken aidiv is that by mixing the consumption of a heat pump and an oil boiler, you take into account the COP of the heat pump.