anti-renewables heat pump? Disadvantages and advantages

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
gmac
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by gmac » 08/11/07, 19:51

Yes, my example may not be representative ... but it is largely not an isolated case in the corner.

For my part, I live about 60m the table ... it has not prevented the neighbor then make a pseudo geothermal energy to heat it and its 300m² nickname Olympic pool.
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bolton069
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by bolton069 » 08/11/07, 19:57

Three additional elements that I think are the responsibility of CAP:

: Arrow: To function properly, they must be coupled to a low temperature heating system. (Underfloor heating, ...) which induces an enormous inertia of the heating system. (Concrete slab in general.)

Out, ideally, if the house is well insulated (whereby always start : Evil: ) Heating system that provides timely and camp-dependent manner immediate weather. (Solar gain suddenly less important)

So if we are cold in the morning, we lace the cap, 2h later we are hot, but then the sun appears, and there we not only cut the cap, but we also open the window by wasting the heat so dearly produced by our CAP.

: Arrow: Moreover, recently, at a conference, a PAC installer answered my questions about the vertical sensors; verdict: life: + -20 / 25 years, then left them there, and we will make holes later. (Cool is that : Shock:)

: Arrow: Finally when catchments in groundwater, arising from possible pollution problem of the web. I guess that implies authorization (s)? :x

That's it that's all.
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Christophe
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by Christophe » 08/11/07, 19:57

Frankly I do not see or is so econological financial interest in these cases ...

30 000 investment € for a heating system even self ... ??? You really have to be a big CON ... : Cheesy:

Nan frankly where's your? For almost the price he had 50 m² of solar panels with the big buffer that is well!

Ah but that may be a part of EdF in ...
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by Other » 08/11/07, 23:15

Hello
A) from an oil boiler with a heat pump, your electric bill may be multiplied by ... surprise! We understand better the pub made by EdF and sellers of electricity for this solution!

-> Not economical

B) If your electricity is produced from coal or oil, the overall performance will be worse CO2 with a light fuel oil boiler efficiency of thermal power plants, transmission losses and COP of your CAP.

-> Surely not ecological

C) If your electricity is nuclear, you certainly decrease your energy bill (but pay your taxes in nuclear anyway) but you fund maintained and the revival of the French nuclear fleet.

-> ecological?

D) Maintenance costs are high and adding to your electricity bill: 2 300 to 2 € all year!

-> Not economical



This sets you here c is true for France, but in Quebec
almost totalitéd el'éléctricitées tfate Hydroelectric, gift renewable Cenergie (there at one Gentilly nuclear power plant and a thermal Tracy)
Electric heaters currently rexclusivement Tplus economic es que Oil
and heated with a heat pump is more economical than any legerment electric, if Evie duréed of thermopome are long tamp.
Most heat pump installation also to enjoy the air conditioning in the summer ..

A geothermal system requires major hard way a cushion unless you have a close enough water nape level

economy that is made on heating in winter is the air conditioning in summer reconsome, unless fair eun eéchangeur as I made air conditioning and heat in hot water tanks.
it is necessary to count 2000 $ for a whole electrical, the élécticité and heating annually.
I find relatively affordable compare the telephone, the TV cable
and internet .. which costs almost the same

Andre
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Brolensky
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by Brolensky » 08/11/07, 23:33

For the life of the drilling, it depends on the type of soil.
It can fall quickly in clay soils: water is evaporated, or migrates further, remains a land crust dryer is waterproof and insulating hyper semie (the conductivity of the earth is 1.5 W / m / K)
the COP would fall even 1.5.
Sandy soils do not be problems with water flowing freely.
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PITMIX
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by PITMIX » 10/11/07, 00:23

Hi Christopher.
My comparative vs EDF GDF is over my rates.
Heating the night in off-peak hours in electric costs 0,043 € the Kwh
The gas full price is € 0,04 Kwh.
So rates are equivalent. It remains to ensure that the boiler does not consume more than Kw CAP.
A small cap that rotates endlessly 7H / 24H consuming 3kwh will she eat less than a boiler set to 9kw which rotates on intermitance 11H? In theory yes but it remains to be verified.
I do not know what operating coefficient should be applied on these 11H to know the number of actual hours of operation of the boiler. 30%; 50%; more ???


I still have a copy of my energy BTS project, I read it and I do not find it very informative. There 300 pages of blah and calculations.
But I can get a little summary quickly.
We were three friends study on the same project.
This was a feasibility study for the installation of a reversible heat pump on an existing floor heating and does not meet current standards or even the time elsewhere.
It was a copper tube in floor heating coil cast into a concrete slab 20cm. The heating system was a hot water tank of 200L with resistance 10kW.

We did a Winter 10,5kw heat balance for 19 ° C by internal -7 ° C outside and a heat balance was 15kw to lower the temperature of 3 ° C in the house.
First problem the floor could only produce 7kw to refresh. Yes !! cold descends and as it is a floor ... We must apply a disadvantage exchange coefficient.

In the end we concluded that we should not use the refresh mode floor because the inertia of the concrete slab to rise to temperature might cause a dew point when too wet air (stormy weather). The slab was a 20heures inertia according to our calculations.
For this to be feasible and effective in the summer you had to install the fan coil units.
The owner of the house has preferred to use only a non-reversible heat pump and aerothermal.
At the time the machines cost between 10.000 and 30.000 following Francs brands.
Last edited by PITMIX the 10 / 11 / 07, 18: 53, 1 edited once.
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crispus
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by crispus » 10/11/07, 16:37

Hi Pitmix,
At the time the machines cost between 10.000 and 30.000 following Francs brands.

That was before the state offers tax credits?
Now the amounts you mention represent what, the amount of VAT? Inflation when you hold us ...

I agree with cricri's opinion, it is urgent to remove all aid of all kinds paid by the state, whether to individuals or businesses: tax credit, reduced VAT & cie. It would be more useful for the state to devote its means to closely supervise the pricing of products and services ... In particular, to get an idea of ​​the "fair price" of energy ...
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fc89
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by fc89 » 10/11/07, 18:36

Hello,

I have figures.
150Km house located south of Paris, 140m² area, PAC air to the outside part, central heating water to the interior part of the house.
average temperature since 1 months 10 ° outside 19 ° inside.
Installing the PAC group with its connection to the central heating 10000Euros.
Conso daily CAP since 1 months 35kwh daily.

When do you think?
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fc89
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by fc89 » 10/11/07, 18:40

ps: before oil was conso 2500l / year
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PITMIX
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by PITMIX » 10/11/07, 19:18

I do not know too prices of oil but if we take 2500L to € 0,68 / 1700 € The fact that fuel oil per year.

Considering that you heated 8 months of the year, it's 245 days.
What makes us 35x245 = 8575 kwh per year or € 8575x0,13 = 1115 EDF at full price.
If you have sufficient water reserves to be able to heat the night peak hours and restiuer when you need it it's 8575x0,043 = 369 € / year of electricity costs peak hours.
You is closer to € 1115 / 369 year or € / year?
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