Heat pump and geothermal: the reality not rosy of the moment

[Capt_Maloche]

VRV DRV?
COP 6: on the basis of your graph with water production at 60 ° c it is not possible; for water production at 30 ° c, maybe yes.

There you do it on purpose

emptying with production at 30 ° C for a heated floor !! you read too fast

VRV: air conditioning and direct expansion heating, see on Daikin.fr

[Christophe]

Full of nice curves and sizing information: https://www.econologie.com/la-technologi ... -3389.html

It comes from dimplex they are good ... in their field.

[Christophe]

Hello

To return to cogeneration

What do you think of a solar thermal / photovoltaic installation (2 in 1 collector) which would supply a heat pump?

The investment would be substantial but entirely autonomous

+1 with Maloche: forget it ... if it's to be linked to your banker for 15 years I don't call it autonomy

When I was talking about cogeneration it is a heat engine (biofuel diesel or wood stirling) so an investment of less than € 10 .... 000 to 3 for those who know how to use their hands (increasingly rare). .

[jean63]

Hello

To return to cogeneration

What do you think of a solar thermal / photovoltaic installation (2 in 1 collector) which would supply a heat pump?

The investment would be substantial but entirely autonomous

+1 with Maloche: forget it ... if it's to be linked to your banker for 15 years I don't call it autonomy

When I was talking about cogeneration it is a heat engine (biofuel diesel or wood stirling) so an investment of less than € 10 .... 000 to 3 for those who know how to use their hands (increasingly rare). .

Can you clarify Christophe? What exactly is cogeneration you keep talking about?
Your heat engine means that you have an engine in your basement (like a Pigeot diesel engine) that runs continuously ... or rather on demand (that is to say, on cold nights, you can't sleep because of the engine noise? and you send the exhaust gases down the chimney?). And what does your engine produce? I suppose you recover heat to heat your house and / or the DHW?

Excuse me, I'm NULL in cogeneration ...

[jean63]

Good evening everyone,

I can give you a summary on nearly 175 feedback from individuals over the past two years on Chaleur Terre:

http://www.chaleurterre.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=18

As for me, I will continue to use my cap on the tablecloth with a cop greater than 5 when the solar does not do the work alone

Hello,

Although I have a groundwater table, I don't want to get into a water-water pAC. For the moment I keep my natural gas boiler with low temperature network (PC and LV radiators).

I am thinking about adding solar collectors and I would not want to make a mistake.

I went snooping around the APPER site for solar and I'm now less convinced that vacuum collectors are the best solution. Is that what you have on your roof?

So what about vacuum sensors? are they more efficient when there is little sun and an inclination / orientation not optimum?

To discuss this topic, we can open another topic so that the forumEcologists can benefit from it.

PS: I kept some references of installations in traditional sensors and a comparison.

[Christophe]

Yes jeans basically this is it: instead of your boiler you have an engine in your cellar that makes electric current (self-consumption or resale) while recovering the cooling calories (60% roughly).

With a "clean" assembly in self-construction you can achieve an overall efficiency of 70 to 80% including 30 to 35% in electricity.

At a global level this is the best because thermal power plants very rarely value the cooling calories (hence the gigantic towers of nuclear power plants) ...

Don't worry the engine would be padded and therefore soundproof and therefore not make much more noise than a boiler.

In terms of hours of operation it would not turn 24/24 but here almost as would turn your boiler, that is to say according to the demand not for electricity but for heat.

I am at the very beginning of our study concerning our cogé and one of the parameters is to run the engine 1000h per year and not more (in order to have only one maintenance operation draining per year to see precisely with the log book according to the engine selected). In this case, it is absolutely necessary to buffer or use the energy directly, which in our case is not a problem of course (thanks to our large buffer).

For sizing:

Roughly speaking: nominal power of the cogeneration engine = annual caloric energy requirements / 1.7 * 1000.

Coef 1.7 comes from the difference between electrical and thermal efficiency, 1.7 times more energy is recovered in electrical than thermal form.

Concretely, electrical efficiency: 30% therefore gives a thermal efficiency of 30 * 1.7 = 51%, i.e. overall efficiency of 30 + 51 = 81%.

Example: a house that consumes 1500 L of fuel oil, ie 15 kWh of needs, will require cogeneration of 000 / 15 * 000 = 1.7 kW which will run 1000h per year, ie 8.82kW.

On the condition of being able to buffer energy obviously!

This cogeneration will therefore produce:

a) 9 kWh = 000 MWh electric
b) 9 * 1.7 * 1000 = 15 kWh hot, i.e. 300 MWh

a) Electric bill if everything was with edf (i.e. 100% electric house) = 9 + 15.3 = 24 kWh or € 300 / year at € 2916 per kWh (subscription included).

b) Fuel bill for heating oil / electricity:
- 1500 * 0.70 = 1050
- 9000 * 0.12 = 1080

Or 2130 € / year

c) Energy bill if the cogé is fueled by fuel oil: 9000 / 0.3 = € 2100 per year at € 0.70 per liter of fuel oil.


We can therefore see that already without any subsidy or aid whatsoever and by using expensive fuel oil and inexpensive nuclear electricity (with us it's 0.25 € per kWh!) it is profitable (little but still profitable and in addition we can make electricity with oil )!

The interest of a cogé is therefore to use a alternative fuel (wood, oil or diester for example) et incidentally to see its subsidized electricity, for example, the Belgian plan SOLWATTsubsidizes 0.8 € per kWh of photovoltaic solar electricity.

If it were the same case, the cogé would be extremely profitable:

Fuel oil cost = 2100 €
Electricity "bought back" at 0.8 € per kWh = 9000 * 0.8 = 7200 €

Annual gain = € 5100 - electric bill
Return on investment = 1 to 2 years ...

[Christophe]

So what about vacuum sensors? are they more efficient when there is little sun and an inclination / orientation not optimum?

For the orientation and the course of the sun: yes
For the sun: no. Without radiation, no panel "works".

We must reason not in "pure" performance but in performance smoothed over a year.

So in the end it's simple what to calculate is: cost under vacuum / service life - cost plan / service life = annual overcharge of vacuum - annual vacuum gain = interesting or not.
All of course in euros.

Example if the vacuum costs you 3000 € and it is 15 years and the plan costs you 2000 and 20 years, the extra vacuum is 100 € per year if it can recover less than 100 € per year it is not interesting.

Another way of seeing things:

If instead of recovering in the "best case for tubes": 70% (low margin for plans) you recover 90% (high margin for tubes) of the radiation in your region, say 1200 kWh / year, you earn therefore 240 kWH / year and per m² of panel. At 0.1 € / kWh, this makes a gain of 24 € / year for the benefit of vacuum tubes in this case, it is therefore necessary that the annual surcharge per m² tubes does not exceed 24 € so that it is "profitable".

You can have fun with the actual viessman figures for example (the vacuum rates are scary) ...

To discuss this topic, we can open another topic so that the forumEcologists can benefit from it.

PS: I kept some references of installations in traditional sensors and a comparison.

Be the first to It interests me well it would refine the calculation that I have just started!

[jean63]

Be the first to It interests me well it would refine the calculation that I have just started!

Ok for radiation whatever the sensor.

For the lifetime, it is the unknown.

I would really like to know for what reasons RV45 chose sous-vide, but if it does not come back here I will ask him the question on Calm.

This debate has already taken place on the APPER website. I spent + several hours there and it is quite complicated because it is difficult to compare surfaces because the vacuum has a gross surface which does not correspond to the real surface of collection (the tubes are quite spaced).

The best thing is that I sign up with APPER and go talk to them, but I feel a little "light" when I see their self-installations. There are comparison arguments:

http://www.apper-solaire.org/2techno.htm
et
http://www.alpilles-solaires.fr/CP_CSV_ ... rtout.html

Okay, stop there. I'm going to open a topic, but I'm afraid that the debate will not start on this forum, since you are only 3 to have sensors (cuicui, tigrou and you) and I know your arguments which are logical because you have large surfaces and an orientation / tilt almost optimum.

The installation of Tigger is in flatbed, but he did a great installation and a lot of work. He must have bought his sensors before the vacuum "arrived" at APPER.

[bham]

Good Jean, when do you open this subject on solar panels / vacuum tubes?
I must say that I have fresh news from Alpilles that I just want to communicate.

[jean63]

Yes jeans basically this is it: instead of your boiler you have an engine in your cellar that makes electric current (self-consumption or resale) while recovering the cooling calories (60% roughly).

With a "clean" assembly in self-construction you can achieve an overall efficiency of 70 to 80% including 30 to 35% in electricity.

At a global level this is the best because thermal power plants very rarely value the cooling calories (hence the gigantic towers of nuclear power plants) ...

Don't worry the engine would be padded and therefore soundproof and therefore not make much more noise than a boiler.

The interest of a cogé is therefore to use a alternative fuel (wood, oil or diester for example) et incidentally to see its subsidized electricity, for example, the Belgian plan SOLWATTsubsidizes 0.8 € per kWh of photovoltaic solar electricity.

If it were the same case, the cogé would be extremely profitable:

Fuel oil cost = 2100 €
Electricity "bought back" at 0.8 € per kWh = 9000 * 0.8 = 7200 €

Annual gain = € 5100 - electric bill
Return on investment = 1 to 2 years ...

No, I would not put an engine in the laundry room hanging on the wall !!! you hardly hear a wall-mounted gas boiler in operation, it's a slight noise .... except the day it explodes !!

For your engine, it's diesel and what do you put in as oil? what price / liter? is it a specific generator style engine?

In Belgium, they don't buy the elec produced by cogé? Is your reasoning theoretical for depreciation?
So you would heat the water in your tampon to power your heating? and for DHW? would you continue with your DEOM?