Longere heating

[herbe10]

Hello,

The house today:

Future owner of a farmhouse in the Loiret with a lot of work. We will renovate the ground floor at first, and then the floor (in 2-3 years)
The house is stone with walls around 50cm.
No insulation
Current heating oil (in the cellar) with cast iron radiators.
The facade is in the South, East Garage.

The house tomorrow:

So we redesigned the house and made the plan of the RDC

We then thought and studied insulation. (The electricity / plumbing will be redone at the same time by integrating all this into the partitions / ceiling.)
For the roof everything will be insulated for the purpose R = 6 mini and R = 3 on the walls

We therefore study the heating by integrating the surface of the floor.
For us useless to take into consideration the heating of Sbd and dressing seen that it will be done by an electric supplement. Ditto for the cellar being a place of passage.

Surface DRC to be heated = 86m² on ceiling 3m10: 266m3
Surface Floor to be heated = 50m² on 2m20 ceiling: 110m3
Total = 376 m3.

How to calculate the heating power I need?

Our criteria:

Hot water: we think to use a hot water tank because it simplifies the heating means and because it suits us very well so we do not take it into account
Simplicity / reliability: Our heating system must be simple enough to have easy maintenance and not have many parts that can cost us dearly.
Aesthetics: If it is not in main heating, it will be necessary to envisage the budget to have the pleasure of making a fire of wood in the living room, while being granted to the style of the house ...

Then we looked at the various heating modes and here is what comes out with our budget 10k €:
Heat pump: Out of budget
Solar heating: Out of budget
Electricity: Cost of use too high
Fuel: Cost of use too high
City gas: Interesting installation but cost too much use
Wood stove: Autonomy too low, minimum of 12h sought
Wood insert: Autonomy too low, minimum of 12h sought
Pellet stove: Interesting but often ugly to put in our fireplace
Pellet Insert: Interesting but can return
Stove boiler: Off budget with the network to remake ...
Barrel insert: Off budget with the network to redo ...
Boiler Wood / pellets: Out of budget

Our questions:

Today I can just say that it will be a wood heater. So it stays Stove or Insert, Granulated or Mixed. According to some opinions I have fears:
- Diffusion of temperature and therefore temperature difference?
- For the problem just diffusion I ask the question of a system of hot air diffuser style "Multifuoco" palazzeti?
- Smell of smoke? Dust?
- Noise of a stove / insert? I have to find a way to listen to several ...
- Installation in the current chimney with an PGI for the entry / evacuation of air possible?

Thank you to everyone who has read this great pavement, if they can help me from their experience, especially if they have a house in the same style as me ...

[Forhorse]

I have the same kind of house, currently in renovation (we are still on the roof / roof so far from the interior)
And the mode of heating is for me still a distant problem.

Anyway, here are the tracks that I followed and that I intend to implement:
- Insulation of the slabs (on solid ground) with integration of a "standby" underfloor heating network (present in case or but connected to nothing)
- Use of internal load-bearing walls as thermal inertia core (with thermal break)
- At first use of a wood stove, in the kitchen / living room as main heating, electric extra in the bathroom and bedroom (upstairs)
- Dual flow VMC incidentally used for the distribution of heat in the house
- Canadian hydraulic well for fresh air supply.

Then, if our budget allows us in a few years:
installation of a boiler (pellets? wood?) for commissioning the underfloor heating, with possibly solar supplement with "large" buffer tank (I imagine in the 4m3) placed in a crawl space provided for this purpose under a living room (certainly the entrance)

[herbe10]

I have the same kind of house, currently in renovation (we are still on the roof / roof so far from the interior)
And the mode of heating is for me still a distant problem.

Anyway, here are the tracks that I followed and that I intend to implement:
- Insulation of the slabs (on solid ground) with integration of a "standby" underfloor heating network (present in case or but connected to nothing)
- Use of internal load-bearing walls as thermal inertia core (with thermal break)
- At first use of a wood stove, in the kitchen / living room as main heating, electric extra in the bathroom and bedroom (upstairs)
- Dual flow VMC incidentally used for the distribution of heat in the house
- Canadian hydraulic well for fresh air supply.

Then, if our budget allows us in a few years:
installation of a boiler (pellets? wood?) for commissioning the underfloor heating, with possibly solar supplement with "large" buffer tank (I imagine in the 4m3) placed in a crawl space provided for this purpose under a living room (certainly the entrance)

So thank you for your answer. Heating is not yet for tomorrow we too but I want to think about it so that all the work is coordinated and logical ...
For the thermal bridge breaker on the walls of split you can tell me more?
Underfloor heating is not possible for us by cons

[Forhorse]

For the thermal bridge breaker on the walls of split you can tell me more?

Simple and rapid method: "trench" over the entire height (and thickness) in contact with the exterior wall.
Where this is not possible for structural reasons, insulate at least 1m wide as if it were an exterior wall.

If not, why would floor heating not be possible for you?

[ATE.Conseil]

Hello gentlemen,

Before choosing the type of heating, it is necessary to guard against the need. Indeed, the heating system that you will put in place must overcome the defects of your home.
It should be noted that the more defects are important, the more the thermal system chosen will have to be efficient and therefore expensive...

Also, I propose to approach the question from another angle:

- step 1: to reduce the heating needs to the maximum by favoring an efficient renovation (at the BBC level is 80kWhEP / m².an ... weighted according to the localization)
- step 2: ensure a good air tightness of the envelope in order to preserve the integrity of the old structure (avoid creating disorders related, for example, to capillary rise in the walls)
- 3 step: depending on your lifestyle, choose from the appropriate solutions. For example, if your house is long, localized heating (stove type) will not achieve sufficient comfort everywhere.
- step 4: have the different solutions costed ... sized to the losses of your home. I insist on this point because, if a geothermal heat pump costs up to 40k € in a poorly insulated old house (up to 200m of wells necessary for the installation + Big PAC in three-phase ...), this same installation for a house renovated BBC can sometimes be worth between 9 and 13k €

With regard to your longhouse, I draw your attention to the following points:

- you have not touched on the subject of the insulation of the low floor ... a priori, your house is on land-full (hence the difficulty of isolating the ground!) ... but suddenly, c is a post important of wastage
- You plan to insulate from the inside the peripheral walls with an 3 R ... consider climbing higher (I would say at least 5m².K / W ...
- You plan to insulate the roof with a R 6 mini ... it's pretty good ... aim even rather 7.5m².K / W ...
- What about glazing? are they already double?
- What about ventilation? A VMC becomes important on a well insulated house (effective and airtight) to manage the pressure of water vapor on the walls in winter and avoid the disorders that could ensue ...
- You plan to put an ECS electric balloon ... have you considered the ECS Thermodynamic air extracted? ... With the CIDD, it does not become much more expensive than the solution ECS electrical + VMC ... and you have hot water almost free all year long!

In summary, I would say that before making a bad choice, a thermal study before work would give you all the interesting leads to consider ... for a moderate blow ...

Greetings
Philippe DESON - ATE Conseil
http://www.ate-conseil.eu
http://www.theia-energies.com
http://www.costruction-rt-2012.fr

[BobFuck]

With such a large amount of inertia walls, it's a shame not to isolate from the outside.

[Forhorse]

With such a large amount of inertia walls, it's a shame not to isolate from the outside.

This is not always possible, there are sometimes constraints of urbanism.

[Forhorse]

have you considered the ECS Thermodynamic air extract? ... With the CIDD, it does not become much more expensive than the ECS electrical + VMC ... and you have hot water almost free all year round ! [/ list]
In summary, I would say that before making a bad choice, a thermal study before work would give you all the interesting leads to consider ... for a moderate blow ...

Almost free ... it remains to be seen.
We see them coming thermodynamic balloon sellers. It will be exactly the same as with CAMPs
The thing costs 10 times more than a simple electric balloon ... except that in 5 years, when the thing is dead (compressor out of order because of programmed obsolescence) and we want to have it restarted, we will have the usual speech " it is no longer done, everything must be changed "
In the end the trick is never profitable and costs more than the energy it is supposed to have saved.

The basic idea is good, its application in our current consumer society is not valid.
or it would be necessary that these devices are sold at their real price with regard to their quality of manufacture and their effective lifetime.
Otherwise it's just another scam.

[herbe10]

For the thermal bridge breaker on the walls of split you can tell me more?

Simple and rapid method: "trench" over the entire height (and thickness) in contact with the exterior wall.
Where this is not possible for structural reasons, insulate at least 1m wide as if it were an exterior wall.

If not, why would floor heating not be possible for you?

underfloor heating not possible because I cannot "raise" the level of the ground, and not possible to break the existing slab which is on a vaulted cellar, the total thickness is 20cm and it would be very fragile and dangerous so I don't touch it!

The trench over the entire height isolates the slab from the wall simply no?

[herbe10]

Hello gentlemen,

Before choosing the type of heating, it is necessary to guard against the need. Indeed, the heating system that you will put in place must overcome the defects of your home.
It should be noted that the more defects are important, the more the thermal system chosen will have to be efficient and therefore expensive...

Also, I propose to approach the question from another angle:

- step 1: to reduce the heating needs to the maximum by favoring an efficient renovation (at the BBC level is 80kWhEP / m².an ... weighted according to the localization)
- step 2: ensure a good air tightness of the envelope in order to preserve the integrity of the old structure (avoid creating disorders related, for example, to capillary rise in the walls)
- 3 step: depending on your lifestyle, choose from the appropriate solutions. For example, if your house is long, localized heating (stove type) will not achieve sufficient comfort everywhere.
- step 4: have the different solutions costed ... sized to the losses of your home. I insist on this point because, if a geothermal heat pump costs up to 40k € in a poorly insulated old house (up to 200m of wells necessary for the installation + Big PAC in three-phase ...), this same installation for a house renovated BBC can sometimes be worth between 9 and 13k €

With regard to your longhouse, I draw your attention to the following points:

- you have not touched on the subject of the insulation of the low floor ... a priori, your house is on land-full (hence the difficulty of isolating the ground!) ... but suddenly, c is a post important of wastage
- You plan to insulate from the inside the peripheral walls with an 3 R ... consider climbing higher (I would say at least 5m².K / W ...
- You plan to insulate the roof with a R 6 mini ... it's pretty good ... aim even rather 7.5m².K / W ...
- What about glazing? are they already double?
- What about ventilation? A VMC becomes important on a well insulated house (effective and airtight) to manage the pressure of water vapor on the walls in winter and avoid the disorders that could ensue ...
- You plan to put an ECS electric balloon ... have you considered the ECS Thermodynamic air extracted? ... With the CIDD, it does not become much more expensive than the solution ECS electrical + VMC ... and you have hot water almost free all year long!

In summary, I would say that before making a bad choice, a thermal study before work would give you all the interesting leads to consider ... for a moderate blow ...

Greetings
Philippe DESON - ATE Conseil
http://www.ate-conseil.eu
http://www.theia-energies.com
http://www.costruction-rt-2012.fr

Step 1 is already in progress, just read the first post
Step 2 is the same as step 1 ...
Step 3: Sellers tell me that a channelable stove is not a problem in my case, I'm suspicious of me .... Users in my situation?
Step 4:
The insulation of the low floor is not possible because the cellar is below so we isolate the cellar without waiting for miracles.
The wall will have a R = 3, not better because we have more room and if we want a house SUPER isolated we do not buy an old housing ...
For the roof we will climb as high as the place will be possible ...
Glazing is not double and will be changed
The VMC will be installed and it will be a dual stream
ECS will be electric because we are two and the difference with thermodynamics is too important for us, we'll see when we made a football team
If not hard to evaluate a heater on a house not made, but if the chosen heating is too low, we will equip the floor to fall to the most just. I think once finished the house with a heater between 9 and 12kW.