and I was talking about your example of the Romans ...AMI: call for interest on "energy storage"
Hello,
and thanks for your answers i will watch this closely. As I already mentioned in another thread, the storage of energy stored in the ground has always challenged me and I have always been surprised by the fact that so little is said about it. Hence my intervention with my region to launch a study with the BRGM.
At the time, I was left with extracting the natural heat from the ground. Your discussions lead me to another solution: storage in the ground.
Really interesting
cordially
and thanks for your answers i will watch this closely. As I already mentioned in another thread, the storage of energy stored in the ground has always challenged me and I have always been surprised by the fact that so little is said about it. Hence my intervention with my region to launch a study with the BRGM.
At the time, I was left with extracting the natural heat from the ground. Your discussions lead me to another solution: storage in the ground.
Really interesting
cordially
Last edited by cortejuan the 14 / 05 / 11, 20: 25, 1 edited once.
0 x
Hello,
The BRGM is unbeatable on the geology of the soils, in particular the soils which crack houses in great drought !!
The extraction of heat from the ground can dry up (stock exhausted by diffusion too slow) after years, whereas it becomes inexhaustible if we put back as much heat in summer, with thermal solar or other sources (as wasted heat in summer , garbage burned in summer in the Paris region, even the heat of thermal or nuclear power stations !! reused in winter to heat buildings.).
Thermal storage will be all the better as it is done on a large volume (losses as surface on volume).
The potential is immense, with the BRGM which indicates the underground rivers to avoid.
The underground caves have an easy and important possibility of thermal storage.
It is all the more interesting that the price of drilling is the cheapest, for me, and I think that we are far from having reduced the price to the maximum, especially at a fairly shallow depth of 10m.
For me, a drill with a bit and a very long extension should work. The problem, this type of extension is not commercial, because nobody needs it beyond the m !!
To heat the floor, it is not necessary to take a large diameter, if you drill more holes.
The other possibility is the micro robot mole drill to develop which exists at least industrially large and very expensive.
If we could realize that progress is possible and waste less excess heat and free in summer, it would be a revolution.
Kind regards.
The BRGM is unbeatable on the geology of the soils, in particular the soils which crack houses in great drought !!
The extraction of heat from the ground can dry up (stock exhausted by diffusion too slow) after years, whereas it becomes inexhaustible if we put back as much heat in summer, with thermal solar or other sources (as wasted heat in summer , garbage burned in summer in the Paris region, even the heat of thermal or nuclear power stations !! reused in winter to heat buildings.).
Thermal storage will be all the better as it is done on a large volume (losses as surface on volume).
The potential is immense, with the BRGM which indicates the underground rivers to avoid.
The underground caves have an easy and important possibility of thermal storage.
It is all the more interesting that the price of drilling is the cheapest, for me, and I think that we are far from having reduced the price to the maximum, especially at a fairly shallow depth of 10m.
For me, a drill with a bit and a very long extension should work. The problem, this type of extension is not commercial, because nobody needs it beyond the m !!
To heat the floor, it is not necessary to take a large diameter, if you drill more holes.
The other possibility is the micro robot mole drill to develop which exists at least industrially large and very expensive.
If we could realize that progress is possible and waste less excess heat and free in summer, it would be a revolution.
Kind regards.
0 x
It's a beast like that that drilled my artesian well:
http://www.foremost.ca/index_dr24hd.php
It took only 1,5 hours for 80 meters deep in the rock!
http://www.foremost.ca/index_dr24hd.php
It took only 1,5 hours for 80 meters deep in the rock!
0 x
Stepping behind sometimes can strengthen friendship.
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
How much did it cost you? 
Beautiful beast of over 30 tonnes which pierces the rock like butter at 1 meter per minute, almost 1,7cm per second !!
Who costs how much in 1h30 and 80m of rock and how many operators ??
On the other hand my too soft garden is not accessible to such a machine, and there would be nothing left of the garden !!
Also I would prefer to make the holes simply of small diameter patiently and not more expensive than the solar collectors of summer of this simplistic type, to send the wasted heat in summer under the ground:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... 20minimal/
A micro drilling robot driller of a few kilos, would be much better and cheaper, once developed, capable of walking slowly underground like a mole, with percussion drill handled by the robot automatically.
A www.dlsc.ca each villa uses 96m of drilling (144x35 / 52 = 97m, which is little with 400m3 of storage per villa.
For a single villa minimum you need 1000m3 in cube or 25 holes on 10x10 = 100m2 at 10 + 6 = 16m in depth and 2m in distance or 25x15 = 400m of holes, which need not be large in diameter.
And with 3000m3, for a house with non-optimal insulation, either 15x15 = 225m2 at 15 + 6 = 21m deep, it takes 56 holes at 2m distance or 56x21 = 1176m of holes !!
In the PACA region on the Mediterranean, I must be able to heat with much less, given the not cold winter.
Who costs how much in 1h30 and 80m of rock and how many operators ??
On the other hand my too soft garden is not accessible to such a machine, and there would be nothing left of the garden !!
Also I would prefer to make the holes simply of small diameter patiently and not more expensive than the solar collectors of summer of this simplistic type, to send the wasted heat in summer under the ground:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... 20minimal/
A micro drilling robot driller of a few kilos, would be much better and cheaper, once developed, capable of walking slowly underground like a mole, with percussion drill handled by the robot automatically.
A www.dlsc.ca each villa uses 96m of drilling (144x35 / 52 = 97m, which is little with 400m3 of storage per villa.
For a single villa minimum you need 1000m3 in cube or 25 holes on 10x10 = 100m2 at 10 + 6 = 16m in depth and 2m in distance or 25x15 = 400m of holes, which need not be large in diameter.
And with 3000m3, for a house with non-optimal insulation, either 15x15 = 225m2 at 15 + 6 = 21m deep, it takes 56 holes at 2m distance or 56x21 = 1176m of holes !!
In the PACA region on the Mediterranean, I must be able to heat with much less, given the not cold winter.
0 x
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Obamot
- Econologue expert
- posts: 28725
- Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
- Location: regio genevesis
- x 5538
I do not believe ... but a vegetable garden is rebuilt quickly ... if there was only that!
5 holes at 80m ... it would scare me less
It would take less space on the surface, and there it would start to be more convincing ...: for 1 day of work.
Permanent ambient temperature at this depth => 15 ° C. With the installation like solar parabolic oven and higher circulation temperatures, it becomes playable ... It would probably be necessary to last between 4 and 6 months with a balloon> 40 ° C ... And as a bonus the possibility of supplying the "domestic hot water" circuit via a boiler (bath, kitchen, etc.) which is far from negligible and becomes possible, whereas with panels on the roof, it seems to me that it is less obvious on the side temperature, right? !!!
For operators, I think that a laborer and a welder with a PL license is enough, from what we see on the video ...
... but a vegetable garden is rebuilt quickly ... if there was only that!
5 holes at 80m ... it would scare me less
It would take less space on the surface, and there it would start to be more convincing ...: for 1 day of work.
Permanent ambient temperature at this depth => 15 ° C. With the installation like solar parabolic oven and higher circulation temperatures, it becomes playable ... It would probably be necessary to last between 4 and 6 months with a balloon> 40 ° C ... And as a bonus the possibility of supplying the "domestic hot water" circuit via a boiler (bath, kitchen, etc.) which is far from negligible and becomes possible, whereas with panels on the roof, it seems to me that it is less obvious on the side temperature, right? !!!
For operators, I think that a laborer and a welder with a PL license is enough, from what we see on the video ...
0 x
.but a vegetable garden is rebuilt quickly ... if there was only that!
in my case impossible, low walls, houses, gardens, inaccessible, equivalent to demolishing everything !!!
In PACA, 15 ° C is 50cm underground for me, reason for my motivation to keep it simple !!!
And no need for large T with efficient sensors or concentrators, just enough to keep it in winter at 25 ° C to 30 ° C. to heat like a scam cap !!
In PACA, short-term storage of a few days, during a temporary cold spell, from the north wind, is essentially sufficient at 15 ° C and using winter solar collectors!
So good conditions to test without taking risks.
Considering the very low price of simplistic summer sensors, I personally want to make it as simple to drill the storage holes.
A good hammer drill with extensions to turn the drills is enough, as I have seen masons use in concrete already, 1m long! My rock is not as hard as concrete.
In addition I want to drill at an angle (45 ° or 60 °) to store deep under a neighboring access street at more than 5m !!
Indeed the ideal is to store under the streets and parking deep !!!
0 x
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Obamot
- Econologue expert
- posts: 28725
- Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
- Location: regio genevesis
- x 5538
To hear you I must have had the palm of setpicism, but you must be world champion right? Because as soon as you have the solution in mind, it looks like you want to get away from it as soon as possible ...
Again, a stone wall can be dismantled and rebuilt relatively easily. "Surface work".... And then your holes, you can ask to make them where you want! To the "propriety limit" if you like (you who want to drill under the road ... without authorization from your municipality) Besides, you must have an entrance? A parking space for your vehicle or to receive friends ...? Is this not a kind of confinement in contradictions or something?
Drilling at an angle will cause the weight of the perforator to rub it against the wall on which it will rest, and that otherwise a collapse of the wall in the direction of gravity will be inevitable, having regard to or piercing and because you will not have no tubes to contain the ground ...
15 ° C in PACA at the coldest with a rocky ground and the mistral, it is not really what tells us weather France:
Somewhere, you're telling us that there would be no need to put the “frost-free” foundation soles in your corner! It doesn't hold amha.
In winter, it is cold to Morocco, so the temperature of the soil in depth in the PACA zone should not be very different from elsewhere in Europe. And at -6m we get closer to the "standard balance threshold" ... It will be so, the deeper you dig! So if you have 15 ° C ... you don't even have to dig, do that in your cellar ...
Ditto in Finland or Canada (see your link), it will not be: neither hotter ... nor colder ... it will be "at the temperature that we find at the depth where we dig" beyond the threshold ... so almost everywhere ... (except under the mountains because of the pressures)
If you don't even believe the Canadians, the best idea would probably be to start by making a small straight hole to the required depth and flanking a temperature probe to verify the hypothesis of "Constant local temperature at depth"... And once the thermometer is in place, pour in some bentonite to have good contact with the ground ...
Again, a stone wall can be dismantled and rebuilt relatively easily. "Surface work".... And then your holes, you can ask to make them where you want! To the "propriety limit" if you like (you who want to drill under the road ... without authorization from your municipality) Besides, you must have an entrance? A parking space for your vehicle or to receive friends ...? Is this not a kind of confinement in contradictions or something?
Drilling at an angle will cause the weight of the perforator to rub it against the wall on which it will rest, and that otherwise a collapse of the wall in the direction of gravity will be inevitable, having regard to or piercing and because you will not have no tubes to contain the ground ...
15 ° C in PACA at the coldest with a rocky ground and the mistral, it is not really what tells us weather France:
Météo France wrote:Winter in PACA
Winter is the cold season and is often sunny. In the plains and on the coast, temperatures can vary from -10 ° to 10 °, or even 15 to 20 ° on sunny days without wind.
The Mistral, this cold wind from the North which clears the sky of any cloud, lowers the temperature quickly.
Somewhere, you're telling us that there would be no need to put the “frost-free” foundation soles in your corner! It doesn't hold amha.
In winter, it is cold to Morocco, so the temperature of the soil in depth in the PACA zone should not be very different from elsewhere in Europe. And at -6m we get closer to the "standard balance threshold" ... It will be so, the deeper you dig! So if you have 15 ° C ... you don't even have to dig, do that in your cellar ...
Ditto in Finland or Canada (see your link), it will not be: neither hotter ... nor colder ... it will be "at the temperature that we find at the depth where we dig" beyond the threshold ... so almost everywhere ... (except under the mountains because of the pressures)
If you don't even believe the Canadians, the best idea would probably be to start by making a small straight hole to the required depth and flanking a temperature probe to verify the hypothesis of "Constant local temperature at depth"... And once the thermometer is in place, pour in some bentonite to have good contact with the ground ...
0 x
Fun but on the coast, from Var where I am sometimes, the water meters above ground, do not freeze !!!! Experimental real fact, sea at minimum T of 12 ° C at least which prevents freezing. Otherwise, the water before the meter would leak, frozen pipe !!!
Many plants would have died there otherwise, such as orange trees, grapefruits, olive trees, fig trees, palm trees, pittosporum, oleanders, cacti, prickly pears, agapanthus, agaves, etc ...
With courage you can swim in winter !!
In southern Brittany it is also a mild climate by the sea, with plants that freeze easily too.
The difference with Canada is enormous and even with Switzerland.
For this, the heat pumps have a good yield, almost never cold at 0 ° C. !!
The soil temperature, annual average at 30cm to 1m deep, is 15 ° C and beyond the same.
And the sea in winter is often close to this value.
In mid April we bathed in the sea at 16 ° C to 18 ° C, without difficulty, with the family. a bit cool, but swimming quickly is possible, it's the average annual temperature.
I think I try to drill small diameter holes 20mm to 25mm and nothing collapses with a tube in it. It is not a trench.
This sentence :
shows a total misunderstanding of the heat diffusion which fixes the temperature of the ground at more than 3 to 6m deep at the annual average value over a year locally, and at 6 to 12m average over 4 years. This is scientifically proven. (except under volcanic soil).
If I want to keep the summer heat to heat with, I have to keep it more than 3m to 6m deep, otherwise it will go outside. But it's easier with 15 ° C than an average of 10 or 5 ° C further north or at altitude.
Many plants would have died there otherwise, such as orange trees, grapefruits, olive trees, fig trees, palm trees, pittosporum, oleanders, cacti, prickly pears, agapanthus, agaves, etc ...
With courage you can swim in winter !!
In southern Brittany it is also a mild climate by the sea, with plants that freeze easily too.
The difference with Canada is enormous and even with Switzerland.
For this, the heat pumps have a good yield, almost never cold at 0 ° C. !!
The soil temperature, annual average at 30cm to 1m deep, is 15 ° C and beyond the same.
And the sea in winter is often close to this value.
In mid April we bathed in the sea at 16 ° C to 18 ° C, without difficulty, with the family. a bit cool, but swimming quickly is possible, it's the average annual temperature.
I think I try to drill small diameter holes 20mm to 25mm and nothing collapses with a tube in it. It is not a trench.
This sentence :
In winter, it is cold to Morocco, so the temperature of the soil deep in the PACA zone should not be very different from elsewhere in Europe. And at -6m we get closer to the "standard balance threshold" ... It will be so, the deeper you dig! So if you have 15 ° C ... you don't even have to dig, do that in your cellar ...
shows a total misunderstanding of the heat diffusion which fixes the temperature of the ground at more than 3 to 6m deep at the annual average value over a year locally, and at 6 to 12m average over 4 years. This is scientifically proven. (except under volcanic soil).
If I want to keep the summer heat to heat with, I have to keep it more than 3m to 6m deep, otherwise it will go outside. But it's easier with 15 ° C than an average of 10 or 5 ° C further north or at altitude.
0 x
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