AMI: call for interest on "energy storage"

[Aumicron]

dedeleco, it is true that the risk of cracking is scary. In this case it is therefore necessary to warm the ground on a part remote from the house and recover this heat in winter to send it back into the house.
The pebble tunnel + veranda + IPN beams seem to me suitable in this case for heating 1000 m3 of soil.

Concept: we reserve a surface of 100 m² on the ground (10 x 10). We dig 4 trenches 2 m deep which will form a top view of a 6 x 6 square centered with respect to the initial surface. Inside these trenches, about twenty (to be determined) IPN beams are driven vertically from 10 m to 1 m from the ground. We have at the bottom of the trench a pipe which will convey hot air and we fill with 1 m of rollers and we recap. Above the initial surface, a veranda of 100 m² by 30 cm high in polycarbonate is built.

The principle: the heated air from the veranda (+ solar panels) is sent into the roller tunnel. The latter in turn heats the IPNs which will transmit the heat to the ground. If the heat rises too much before winter, it is returned to the ground. The system runs in a loop. Provide photovoltaic panels to power the fan. This system must be able to heat 1000 m3 of soil.

The dimensions and types of materials are given for information only.

[Obamot]

What cost, all these works? (As for digging 4 trenches in rock 2m X 6m ... tsssss ...)

[cortejuan]

Hello,

I asked a question about the achievements of this type of storage. After reading the pages of the thread, I see that there is only one case cited every two posts by dedeleco ... Quoting a hundred times the same achievement does not make a hundred achievements unless dedéléco is adept at the method Coue.

So it is clear, there is almost nothing on our dear planet and I am looking for the reasons. The "inability" of good people to assimilate the notion of diffusion is a very bad and derogatory argument.

If it is so effective that it is absolutely necessary to do the manipulation. All the grounds are not rocky, tests could be made in clay soils using either rented augers or well extraction techniques (for example water drilling). It wouldn't cost a fortune.

Without real theoretical simulation and demonstrator, we remain in the declamations. Finally in my job, that's always how we do it.

In any case, all this is interesting and I wonder if I will not give it a try one of these days.

cordially

[Obamot]

Yes, Cortejuan! I have often repeated to Dédé, even Aumicron (who are devoted, sincere, honest and of very good will => like the overwhelming majority of those who attend this forum) that some “optimistic flights” that were a little too oriented were unproductive and I realized that I was not wrong since this testimony shows that excess can distort the debate. Besides, I am as stubborn as they are in skepticism, because there is a kind of mission which would consist in making sure that nobody is disappointed (point on which I have no exclusivity ... hi , hi) which gives “lively” debates ;-))))

Because basically, we are almost all of the same opinion ... Only the usual precautions change ... ^^

The reference thread on the subject (if we can call it that ^^), had been created by Christophe, although the idea was of Dedelco who spoke about it often and that my name appears as "initiator" (which it's not the case).

It is here:

https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-e ... 70-30.html

I will update it as soon as there is something new on the side of the EPFZ. These are teutons of "Swiss" reliability ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha ..... [joke inside and friendly to my colleagues ...]

In addition, there is another project of Christophe, in the form of swimming pool, which according to him holds the road (and there is no reason to doubt it).

Finally there is the German house with a gigantic “boiler_tampon_thermique” inside the building, which works wonderfully.

So that's 4 reliable sources that prove that it works (including the link of Dedelco) ... I am obliged to leave aside the link of Aumicron for now, because I do not see the "final realization", nor in photo, nor in testimony ... There is still another marginal one, which uses the same principle with a house made in tire of waste being used as gaparit to mount earthen walls of peatland type ... (the vegetable earth retaining the heat of the day and repeating it at night, but it is not possible everywhere because you need the climate "which is going well", yet it works ...) But what motivates me is a solution that "holds the road perfectly "and that works whatever the type of construction concerned (existing building stock requires ...)

[dedeleco]

Hi,
Totally agree, with cortejuan, but there are different achievements less successful than www.dlsc.ca, with many variations, to store the summer heat, which I put the references that google gives if we ask the questions correctly (interseasonal heating wiki) !!
Very few in France on the internet, but elsewhere different forms, even very old (the Romans kept winter ice for summer:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9frig%C3%A9ration
rt:
http://www.visite-chateau-jardin.fr/ch% ... i%C3%A8re/

The Greeks and the Romans piled up ice and snow in winter in deep pits, covered with straw. The meat kept in these primitive coolers remained fresh until the summer, without the need to salt or smoke it ...
Often a floor covered the ice to keep it cold: the yield was around 10m3 used for 50m3 of preserved ice. Unloading was sometimes done at night, to limit warming.
The ice was congregating and it was necessary to break pieces of it with peaks

!!)!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_thermal_store
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_thermal_store
http://www.solites.de/download/03-06.pdf
http://chargingtheearth.blogspot.com/20 ... ermal.html
and many others in:
http://www.google.fr/search?client=fire ... =&aql=&oq=
It is therefore not just a matter of empty declamations.
In my opinion, not developed because not profitable, since the customer is no longer captive to constantly buy something to heat and repair, and therefore only rare achievements.
The price of conventional drilling is high and therefore with the imperative of amortization in a few years, nothing is undertaken except for the creative and uluberlus ahead of their time.

An example is the house bought by Christophe, with non-optimal storage, probably because of the non-assimilation of the physical bases of the diffusion of heat and habits, which push to store in a large tank of water, and also the price! ! Unfortunately not enough. Nevertheless it allows significant savings in heating.
But we can not keep the heat for so many months without agreeing to lose a lot, which is psychologically disruptive given our habits. !!
But considering that solar heat is much more lost currently on our roofs, with almost always nothing to use it, losing it is not serious if we keep enough for the winter.

For tests, greenhouses seem to me ideal, because they do not require 20 ° C and if we improve the temperature a little compared to that of the soil, it is a lot of gain in heating consumption.
In the PACA region too, not cold, it's much easier to gain a few degrees and accept a partial result.
The soil already at 15 ° C in the PACA region, requires only 5 ° C more remaining from the summer preheating, to heat a house to 20 ° C.
Considering the summer sun in PACA which allows to heat to 80 ° C with simplistic sensors, there should be enough heat to reach 20 ° C in winter.

We can partially realize and see the behavior knowing that it will not be enough but a first step.

With an existing Canadian well, the risks are low, by heating it strongly in summer with simple solar thermal collectors even with forced air (or water). Unique drawback, we lose the possibility of cooling in summer with this well. and you can see what's left in fall and winter, in the form of a less expensive heat pump.
If this well does not cool down too much in winter, with PAC alone, it should store summer heat well.

In non-rocky terrain, much easier to drill, you must be careful with the circulation of water, which can take away a lot of heat if you are not lucky. In principle, with compact clay, less risk.

For me, in the PACA region, it is essential to be able to drill myself because then the number of holes is no longer limited (even if small diameters). Indeed full of small details (diameters, insulation, circulation) are to be specified for the optimum, to reduce the price and make it work, so having the freedom to carry out gradually to correct if necessary is then essential. A realization in one go will miss the optimum, like a lot of the above. www.dlsc.ca is close to this optimum with serious means well developed elsewhere.
A first borehole makes it possible to specify, if the water arrives too quickly, how the diffusion of heat is carried out, with, after rather long heating, the T in measured diffusive or not (decreasing by slowing down following the diffusion or without slowing down, heat carried away by the circulating ground water) !! Even with water, you can fall on a pocket of still groundwater in a clay hollow, which will then heat up as well as a large water balloon !!
Kind regards.

[dedeleco]

Aumicron offers an idea to analyze:

around twenty (to be determined) IPN beams are inserted vertically from 10 m to 1 m from the ground

to conduct heat deep down to 11m deep !!
the difficulty is that I can't see myself pushing these beams into the ground without the huge pestle which is used to drive foundation piles, 15 m high, pestle of several tonnes which will not be able to pierce the rock !!
In addition, as steel conducts 160 times better heat than topsoil, the metal section must be much more than 1/160 = 0,625 / 100 the surface of the veranda of 100m2, to quickly conduct heat in the earth , or in total a few m2 of total section of the beams so that they quickly conduct heat to the ground !!

So this solution is not very accessible and expensive, at least for me.
Another idea from Aumicron is worth thinking about:

If the heat rises too much before winter, it is returned to the ground.

with the veranda sensor above the floor making insulation above the heated floor.
But we must evaluate the losses of the sensor, heated, especially at night and in autumn and winter, which will lose a good part of this heat, even if it is less than without veranda, we will have the losses of the heating of this isolated veranda by polycarbonate.
Given the price of IPN beams, double or even triple glazing must be placed on the solar collector veranda or film with transparent bubbles.
Another solution is to place on the ground an insulation of 20 to 40cm of cheap insulation, which will reduce losses from the ground, and circulation of hot air in the ground when there is sun.

But the beams must be boreholes with circulation of air (or fluid), if not too expensive, too numerous and impossible to drive.

[Obamot]

For ice cream, not exactly .... The example of the Romans with the storage of ice in a cellar is not a good example (see chest freezers which keep the cold better with their bowl shape ...) .

Besides in civil engineering, we sometimes use the freezing of the ground to make sure an unstable ground ... If that can give you ideas, you can draw info in this .pdf:
http://www.techni.ch/technifin/haupt/tr ... /0005.html

You will see that they “do tests” !!!

Other source:



http://congelation.sol.freezee.org/inde ... =compchang

But your example is well chosen, because it demonstrates the heavy handicap that surface installations have to overcome .... There is a double flow here which is due to the laws of physics:
- heat which rises naturally (and therefore tends to escape from the area where it is stored).
- the cold which will naturally be stored as low as possible ...

If heat behaved like cold, the problem would have been solved long ago ...

[dedeleco]

If heat behaved like cold, the problem would have been solved long ago ...

however, because the surrounding heat in the walls diffuses to melt the ice and I invite you to calculate the shelf life of the ice according to its size, its geometry and the gradually slowed down heat diffusion in very thick walls (more than 6 m) surrounded by earth at 13 ° C annually.
The calculation is the same taking into account the heat of liquefaction of the ice !!

[Obamot]

The classic mistake ...

[dedeleco]

Nothing to do with freezing soft soil full of water with liquid nitrogen where we avoid any problem of heat diffusion, on this site which does not speak anywhere of the diffusion of heat !! frightening !!

They make tests to check the mechanical solidity which has nothing to do with the diffusion of heat once well frozen !!

The Romans had understood empirically the diffusion of heat, because otherwise more ice in summer !!
Calculate the quantity melted in a deep cellar full of ice in January when it opens in July according to the size of the walls and the nature of the soil around at 13 ° C!

The given site is incapable of it, since this is not their problem at all !!!
It is making a soil very solid in one or two days by freezing it quickly with T of liquid nitrogen !!
Not much to see !!