Compare the cost of heating energy

[Did67]

Always my problems of ignorance of forums: I thought I had made a "mp", my answer having no collective interest. It's a yes. I already have a good collection of photos: construction of the silo, dismantling and reassembly of the boiler ...

Ok great I'm sending you a PM with my email so that you send me the photos + explanations. Click on "Private Messages" at the top in a few minutes!

ps: for the efficiency at 30%, are you sure that it is the boiler efficiency and not the combustion efficiency? Maybe we could find the doc on the net? What model do you have exactly?

To convince yourself, check out the Hargassner HSV 15 test results.

http://www.blt.bmlfuw.gv.at/pruefber/g2000142.pdf

On page 5 of the report you have all the data with the boiler on full blast ("Nenn-Wärmeleistung" - literally: nominal heat output). That is to say a yield of 94,3%, with gases around 110 ° C.

On page 9, it is the same results at "minimum power" ("kleinste Wärmeleistung") ie an efficiency of 93,2%, with gases around 75%.

I insist a little, because the readability of these reports is not obvious. They are not made for! It took me a long time to understand.

We are therefore there with sophisticated machines, which control the "pile-pile" combustion, the draft, the arrival of pellets, etc ... Nothing to do with inserts or stoves. That's why I challenged the 70% returns. We have flames with a blue base, with combustion temperatures of around 900 ° C.

The fact remains that even with these machines, the combustion is more polluting than that of natural gas, as I have already written - we must not just talk about anything and take people for gogos. Compared to fuel, it is less clear cut. On the other hand, there is indeed neutrality with regard to CO² and global warming. Suddenly, I divided our direct emissions of "fossil" CO² by two.

[Did67]

ps: for the efficiency at 30%, are you sure that it is the boiler efficiency and not the combustion efficiency? Maybe we could find the doc on the net? What model do you have exactly?

Also for those who understand German and are interested in references by brand of boiler, a German document summarizes the models available in Germany, with output, type of stove, sometimes price indications (in Germany), etc. ...

http://www.depv.de/uploads/media/Pellet ... n_2007.pdf

If one or the other is interested in this or that model, I will translate it ...

[jean63]

- boiler efficiency (Okofen PESK 15 - condensing) = 100,6% (according to official tests from the Austrian institute that certifies boilers - "up to 104%" according to the manufacturer); not 70% ; in a general way, serious brands (Austrian or German) all reach around 90%, the best exceed this figure ... I have a lot of documentation on this subject.

How much did you pay for your Okofen boiler?

I haven't paid for it yet!

Joking aside, it is worth 10 € HT. Deduct € 059 for the same model without condensation.
The screw + accessories: € 1 excl. Tax (there are different variants for the supply: direct screw, screw + blower - this is my case)
Regulation: 749 € HT
Remote control (room thermostat): 78 € HT
the kit for the silo (firefighters connections): 167 € HT
the protective mat for the silo: 43 € HT

VAT = 5,5%

But yes, everyone is interested in "how much does it cost" ..... well me always.

Well here I am not concerned for the moment because I replaced my wall gas boiler which heats my whole house and provides the DHW for 2000 euros TTC installed 4 years ago. The previous one installed in 1985 (condensing) had cost me 12 francs.

I see that this pellet boiler is not given but good if she is very efficient and moreover burning wood in pellets, it is better for the global CO2. How much is the total installed including tax with the flue pipe? .... if it is not indiscreet

Can you keep us informed of the consumption and the cost of pellets for the winter ... and the year in a year.

Thank you in advance.

[Christophe]

I see that this pellet boiler is not given but good if she is very efficient

Well, this is the installed price of a very good oil boiler ... right?

By cons with the pellets must still add the storage room ...

[Did67]

I see that this pellet boiler is not given but good if she is very efficient and moreover burning wood in pellets, it is better for the global CO2. How much is the total installed tax incl. With the smoke casing? .... if it is not indiscreet: |


Thank you in advance.

It is not efficient: it is VERY VERY performance. Even if we bicker with Christophe on it. It's a model condensing, tested by an independent institute at 100,6% efficiency, at nominal load (clearly: "fully") and again at 98% - of memory - at 30% of nominal capacity (therefore "at idle") . This is thanks to condensation.

I gave the material costs. Okofen to a price list, which I saw with my heating engineer (normally, they don't show it). There are many models - with or without condensation, with direct supply of pellets by screw or supply by suction. The prices of boilers and accessories (screws) depend on it. Mine is with suction (it is the most expensive option - the direct supply is a little cheaper, but requires that the premises lend themselves to it) and therefore with condensation.

The complete installation, including works, costs me a little more than € 17 including VAT, including tubing. But it obviously depends on the configuration of the premises and what to do. For example, I replaced the circulators and 000-way valves, which I could have taken back. I also modified all the boiler room piping because it was the mess (put in place in successive stages). I also transferred the DHW to an (existing) solar tank ...

I self-built the silo (in wood). It took me about 500 € of materials (mainly wood and screws, metal brackets). We can do less, but my motto is "we only do it once, so let's do it correctly - which is also the reverse: we do it correctly so we only do it once!

I will benefit from around € 6 in tax credits (in a few months) and € 000 in subsidy from the Regional Council of Alsace.

The cost at my expense will be approximately € 10. I did not quote for the same work with a fuel boiler. This should swim between 000 and 5 € TTC. I therefore have an additional cost at my expense which I estimate to be an order of magnitude of € 6.

I remind you, for those who have not read my contributions elsewhere, that my first motivation was not to remain inactive with regard to global warming, without spending more in the long term. Profitability was not my first criterion. Hence options whose profitability is not obvious, such as condensation (my motto: it is not because a resource is renewable that it should be wasted for reasons of profitability).

[Did67]

Can you keep us informed of the consumption and the cost of pellets for the winter ... and the year in a year.

Thank you in advance.

I'm willing to do it. But :

1) You must remind me by then !!!

2) A year is not at all significant: winter is more or less long, more or less cold. We keep seeing this kind of bullshit on forums. By comparing a mild winter with a harsh winter, some show that fule is expensive, and others the opposite. And after, everyone yells at each other!

3) I know that on average, I consumed 2 liters of fuel (average established over the last 100 years). We could take stock in 10 years! But will I still chat by then ???

4) I just returned 8020 kg of pellets for € 1 including all taxes. This corresponds to 511 liters of fuel (for those who are quick to react: these are Din + pellets certified at 4 kWh / kg, the legal minimum for DIN pellets being 000). On average, at current rates, one year of heating would have cost me € 5,0 with fuel oil (purchased by 4,5 l - local rate in early January). I think that the same virtual average year will cost me only € 1 with the pellets (and I do not take into account the fact that the performance of my Okofen boiler exceeds that of the Viessman - however high performance - that I had).

5) To avoid unnecessary reactions: I voluntarily built a large silo to be able to speculate on prices. They were still low, so I refueled for about 2 years ... Of course no one would have bought 4 liters of fuel at this time. Although it is not sure not to pay them even more expensive in a year !!!

6) Suddenly, since I don't have a counter, it will be difficult for me to estimate what came out in a year. The pile is not "square"! The bottom of the silo is V ...

[Did67]

Well, this is the installed price of a very good oil boiler ... right?

By cons with the pellets must still add the storage room ...

I think an oil-fired boiler is cheaper, but I didn't worry about it, since I was "messing up" mine (which still worked).

For the local, a few points:

1) fuel storage is also required

2) for the pellets, the volume is roughly three times the same refueling frequency

3) that said, in my case, the tanks being in a room in which a lot of space was lost (because they are standard) ...

4) I very slightly enlarged the room, but I use it completely (except the space lost due to the V at the bottom of the silo). I had a capacity of 5 l of fuel (which is large), I now have a capacity of 000 tonnes of pellets (which is important too, but equivalent to only 8 l, while having lost about 4 m wide in the adjoining room).

A hidden cost which can be significant: degassing and recovery of an old tank if it is metallic and if it has to be cut!

Mine were plastic. I cut one with a simple jigsaw (after multiple precautions) and the second will be used after cleaning to collect rainwater.

For information: I visited an installation where the tank is used as a silo, always after degassing, installation of a screw in it, model of "suction" boiler. It works flawlessly.

[dudulle]

Well where would the water come from if it doesn't come from the moisture in the pellets or the humidity in the air? In fact we evaporate it to recondense it then? To my knowledge, wood only contains a maximum of 2% of hydrogen ...

Hello

I do not know if this value has already been corrected (I have not yet read the whole subject), but the amount of hydrogen is rather of the order of 6 to 8%; the wood being mainly composed of cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin I leave it to you to check; the calculation is simple ...

[Did67]

No need to fight.

As a first approximation, it is derived from glucose: C6H1206.

So 12 g of H for 180 g in total, or 6 to 7% (by mass). So much for the content.

By being oxidized, these 12 g of Ho give 3 molecules of H20 and the 6 g of C give 6 molecules of CO2.

As a result, as a first approximation, the combustion of 180 g of organic matter gives:

a) 54 g of steam

b) 264 g of CO²

The yield gain results from the part of condensed water vapor, and there, the answer is "it depends" (first of all on the return temperature of the water in the condenser, which will determine the dew point, therefore the saturation; I remind you that the curve dew is not linear).

[minguinhirigue]

Nice exchanges ...

Thank you Christophe for this nice study, thank you Did67 for your perseverance in front of Christophe.

I agree that good current wood boilers can provide yields of more than 85% without condensation and above 95% with.

I would just like to add, Christophe, that among the noisy stoves, that you like, you forgot the good old mass stove, without electronic regulation, tested with a protocol CSTB NF EN 17025. The current yields of recent stoves are 85% at Hiemstra like at home Brimstone. So without electronic regulation, despite all the efforts of the manufacturers, it is still necessary to know how to adjust the machines a little ... But for such a "rustic" system, it is rather admirable in performance.