Comparative CO2 and energy: heat pump, gas and cpcu

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
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yannko
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by yannko » 07/08/09, 09:36

I would also like to remind you of something that is often forgotten :!: , uranium mining uses sulfuric acid and chemical compounds that are injected phenomenally into terrestrial basements in some cases :| .
This is for example the case in Central and Eastern Europe, where entire regions are condemned, not only by radioactive residues, but especially by the devastation of soils, and in particular groundwater :frown: .
These factors are unfortunately not often taken into account in the same way in the calculations, I think it would be wise to incorporate them, but how :?:

For information:

Wikipedia wrote:
Environmental impact of a uranium mine

Uranium is a weakly radioactive element, which poses no danger to the environment if it remains in its natural state. However, after the dismantling of a uranium mine, more than 80% of the radioisotopes remain in the cuttings hills. The wind diffuses radioactive particles in all directions. The trickling water is contaminated and infiltrates into the groundwater or streams.

A working uranium mine produces a lot of waste:

* atmospheric releases: radon and radioactive dust. One of the most dangerous releases from a uranium mine is radon, a rare invisible and odorless gas that spreads from conditioning facilities and spoil hills or liquid waste tanks. Radon carries a risk of lung cancer.
* liquid discharges: mine water created by drilling and runoff inside the mine. Water can be pumped and treated before discharge.
* solid waste: sludge and precipitates from the treatment of liquid effluents.
* waste rock: extracted rocks which contain very little uranium and which are therefore not treated. The quantity of uranium mine waste rock reaches hundreds of millions of tonnes. If the waste rock is not well covered and located, it releases radon and radioactive dust into the air and by the infiltration of rainwater toxic and radioactive materials pass into ground and surface water.
* poor ores: ores whose uranium content is between 0,03 and 0,8% approximately. They are not always treated. Stocks pose the same problems as waste rock, compounded by the higher uranium content.

This waste exposes the environment to the radioactivity of uranium, which can lead to radioactive contamination of humans, fauna and flora. In addition, certain wastes not only have a danger linked to radioactivity but also a risk linked to the toxicity of conventional chemicals such as sulfuric acid and heavy metals, used for the treatment of uranium ore. Finally, we must also consider the nuisance of the mine due to:

* the total area of ​​land occupied by the mine, which is higher for uranium than for the exploitation of other ores.
* the social impact for the natives residing on the exploitation site (examples in the USA, Canada, Africa, Australia, Tibet (cf Sun Xiaodi)…).

In December 2003, CRIIRAD carried out an independent inspection in Arlit (Niger), where there are uranium mines operated by the French nuclear industry (Cogéma-Areva). Many irregularities were pointed out in the final report, although the inspection was disturbed by the confiscation of the equipment and various obstructions on the part of the Niger authorities and Cogéma. [10]

According to the Austrian Ecological Institute [11], the exploitation of uranium mines and the processing of spent fuel are the stages of the nuclear fuel cycle that contribute most to the radiation doses due to nuclear energy [ 12] (taking into account normal operation and “small” incidents, ie excluding nuclear tests and serious accidents such as the Chernobyl disaster).
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by Christophe » 07/08/09, 13:21

Thank you for the clarification".

I also recall the existence of a Piece à Conviction which had caused "controversy" a few months ago: Nuclear: France contaminated with Uranium?

To see here in stream: http://programmes.france3.fr/pieces-a-c ... 247-fr.php
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by Capt_Maloche » 07/08/09, 13:35

As much as I would tend to be for Nuke concerning the energy density provided by the ore, As much I cannot admit the extraction methods which put us in danger and for a long time, suffice to see the mines open in Niger ...

And long live the Z machine !!!

https://www.econologie.com/forums/tout-savoi ... 9-220.html

https://www.econologie.com/forums/projet-pet ... 48-10.html

https://www.econologie.com/forums/z-machine- ... 7-130.html
Last edited by Capt_Maloche the 07 / 08 / 09, 16: 33, 1 edited once.
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by Woodcutter » 07/08/09, 16:10

Funny that we do not see our friend pb on this post ... : Mrgreen:
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by floflo87 » 10/08/09, 15:54

I had not had time to come back to see this topic for a while, I was surprised to have so much reading! : Lol:

I believe that in any case we will never agree on the basic figures. Personally, I would always trust ADEME-type "organizations" more than the various articles published in newspapers (which need sensationalism to sell ...). Admittedly, ADEME and the others are not immune to corporate lobbying, and in particular EDF, but their figures are undoubtedly more reliable than those which can be found in the newspapers. In addition, I have no doubt that GDF and TOTAL do not know about lobbies either. :frown: : Evil:

Therefore, I find that the value of 500g / kWh is far too important. Let it be a little above 180g perhaps, but at this point there no!

To show that in the battle of figures have little also go the other way:

According to a study conducted by ADEME, the minimum threshold of "annual average COP" which allows
primary energy savings is 2,03. A value below which a heat pump no longer presents
of energy interest compared to a fossil fuel heating solution.


With the link where I found it: http://www.solagro.org/site/im_user/278pac.pdf
Your turn to judge.


BE CAREFUL not to mix everything. French electricity releases CO2 and produces radioactive waste. But nuclear does not release very little CO2: memory 5g / kWh.

On the other hand, it is certain that nuclear waste poses pb. This is the CO2 / radioactive waste dilemma, personally I tell myself that by being careful (the problem is probably there), it is better to have a few kilos of monitored radioactive waste, than several tons of CO2 "in freedom" in the atmosphere...

Finally, the problem of the installations is very important, but I prefer to spend a little more initially and to pollute less afterwards, provided of course that it remains "reasonable".

For me, IN BRIEF:
- Floor heat pump >> boiler
- Heat pump on air> = boiler (depends quite a bit on the region and the use)


EDIT: I just read something interesting, I add it on the fly:
Note: Taking into account the life cycle does not change this assessment.
The full CO2 balance of an energy production supposes that the emissions are also counted
intervening before and after the exploitation phase. “Life cycle” analyzes of production
thus take into account the construction of the installations and all the operations of the cycle
fuel: mining, uranium enrichment, reprocessing, storage of
waste, transport etc ... The result refers to 6 grams of CO2 for a nuclear kWh produced. This
balance sheet is too weak to modify, even marginally, the overall assessment indicated above. AT
By way of comparison, “life cycle” analyzes for other non-carbon energies give the
following results (in grams of CO2 / kWh): hydroelectricity: 4; wind energy: from 3 to 22; solar
photovoltaic: from 60 to 150. (Sources: ADEME, EDF, Jancovici).

http://www.sfen.org/fr/themes/grenelle.pdf

Here we are clearly in nuclear pro (see source) which gives us 6g / kWh for the life cycle part. It is therefore probably to be increased, but it remains weak.
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by Capt_Maloche » 10/08/09, 16:43

A ghost ! :D

The truth is between the two figures, but 6g is just intoxicating

When the production fleet is 70% nuclear and 30% renewable, then, yes, the rates may drop ... a little
I always ask to know the energies at stake for the extraction, the refining, the transport and especially the enrichment of 1KG of taxable raw material with regard to the useful energy extracted.

According to a study carried out by ADEME, the minimum threshold of "average annual COP" which allows primary energy savings is 2,03. A value below which a heat pump is no longer of energy interest compared to a fossil fuel heating solution.

well with a yield of 2.58 on Primary energy, I don't see how we can save energy on a COP of 2 ...

The concern is that many heat pump sellers install so-called "High T °" heat pumps to replace a boiler on convectors calculated for water regimes 90/70 ° C, without explaining that the annual COP will be less than 2 in this particular case.

The heat pump is good, provided it is sized to provide heating in low T° (45 ° C) up to 0 ° C -5 ° C outside and complete the installation with another heating system, for example an insert or a wood boiler
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by floflo87 » 10/08/09, 21:57

Capt_Maloche wrote:
According to a study carried out by ADEME, the minimum threshold of "average annual COP" which allows primary energy savings is 2,03. A value below which a heat pump is no longer of energy interest compared to a fossil fuel heating solution.

well with a yield of 2.58 on Primary energy, I don't see how we can save energy on a COP of 2 ...


I agree, I don't see either. This is mainly to illustrate that for people who know little about it, the figures can easily be manipulated, in one direction as in the other!
that's too optimistic but I find yours too pessimistic
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by Capt_Maloche » 10/08/09, 22:04

Indeed, but not that much, it is mainly to support where it hurts

to know that for the moment:
Our electricity in France, but especially everywhere else in the world, is far from being as clean as we would like to say

and for heat pumps, it is necessary to wait until the energies increase so that the operating balance over 10 years is profitable
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"Consumption is similar to a search consolation, a way to fill a growing existential void. With, the key, a lot of frustration and a little guilt, increasing the environmental awareness." (Gérard Mermet)
OUCH, OUILLE, OUCH, AAHH! ^ _ ^
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yannko
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by yannko » 11/08/09, 08:28

floflo87 wrote:Personally, I would always trust ADEME-type "organizations" more than the various articles published in newspapers (which need sensationalism to sell ...). Admittedly, ADEME and the others are not immune to corporate lobbying, and in particular EDF, but their figures are undoubtedly more reliable than those which can be found in the newspapers. In addition, I have no doubt that GDF and TOTAL do not know about lobbies either. :frown: : Evil:

Therefore, I find that the value of 500g / kWh is far too important. Let it be a little above 180g perhaps, but at this point there no!


Personally, I never trust a lobby or official figures, if only for their credibility :frown: ...
If we stick to what official bodies tell us, we have already seen what the consequences are, far from the truth in general :| .
As Captain said, the energy cost of transforming a kilogram of uranium ore into useful energy is enormous. It would be enough to make an estimate, you have to go fishing for data, if you can find some.
Some infos which can perhaps supplement these questions a little:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XRKzJLp65m8C&pg=PA281&lpg=PA281&dq=co%C3%BBt+%C3%A9nerg%C3%A9tique+de+l%27enrichissement+de+l%27uranium&source=bl&ots=VJihbnwM2F&sig=8xDjApApR-HusbB2L_HiPfJbcjI&hl=fr&ei=Rw6BSpt7l4f8Bu3MnbML&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Personally, in the end, I believe much more in 500 g of CO2 / kWh than in 200.
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by Capt_Maloche » 15/09/09, 10:47

La immediate solution alternative for the wallet and CO2 is as follows:

Install at the central point of the house a "Split System", or an "air / air heat pump of the inverter type (compressor speeds and variable fans) of medium power in order to ensure an efficient COP

this is what I will do this week with this product (guaranteed 2 years and 3 years for the compressor) at the unstoppable price of 559 €, or around the price 1000L of fuel oil
see: www.bricoman.fr/Recherche.aspx

Image

Cold: 3,5 kW, hot: 4,3 kW. with complete connection kit.

This product should save me half of my fuel bill (electricity consumption deducted), around 1300L of fuel or 1 / 10th of the price of a PAC of the same power.

Return on investment: 1 year :D

Important note : never take the biggest power of a reversible air conditioning model, because the exchangers are most of the time undersized and the COP reduced, and always take an inverter type model with R410A

For the example, the difference in power between the Heating mode and the Cooling mode must be at least 1/4 of the power in cooling, i.e. here 4,3 - 3,5 = 0,8 KW (this represents the power rejected by fluid compression)
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"Consumption is similar to a search consolation, a way to fill a growing existential void. With, the key, a lot of frustration and a little guilt, increasing the environmental awareness." (Gérard Mermet)
OUCH, OUILLE, OUCH, AAHH! ^ _ ^

 


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