Ok, I understand
The basic idea was simply to heat the whole house with a boiler stove connected to 4 radiators.
After the idea of using this stove for DHW came to me naturally thinking of heating my water with wood only during the winter and going back to electricity in the summer.
But the connection to the ECS seems to me much more complex than I imagined, which is why I am postponing this to later.
In the immediate future I am looking for a good boiler stove of 10KW maximum. Data on it?
Small stove Wood boiler
The volume of the balloon, depends on the use of hot water compared to the time of re-heating of the balloon!! !!
For example, the maximum quantity needed at one time without being able to heat up, fixes the size of the balloon.
For example, one shower per month does not need more than 50 liters which is more than enough, the case at the seaside in summer where you bathe and shower outside!!
50L can be enough if you are careful to make a nice fire of wood before taking a shower!!
An automatic gas heater does it for you and therefore 50L works very well (less than 30 minutes of heating)!!
If the burning of wood could be automated, given the high instantaneous power, 50L are sufficient if you are careful not to be all taking your shower or bath at the same time!
I lived like this for a long time with a 50L balloon without difficulty!!
50L is liveable!!
It all depends on your lifestyle and your comfort requirements.
If it's not a disaster to have cold water sometimes in your shower, it's liveable!!
When I was a kid, we had almost none of this non-essential hot water comfort!!
In summer I rinse myself off from swimming in the sea, outside, in cold tap water, much warmer than the sea at the moment, given the mistral for a week, which has driven all the hot water towards Corsica, consequence of the bad weather on the rest of France !! !!!
Try the simplest circuit, (except pressure safety and overheating).
However, gas heating is infinitely simpler than a gas plant at home and therefore more reliable!!
Some diagrams are unnecessarily complicated to sell more material!!
Finally, the simplest wood, on insert or stove, is a hot air circulator which sends its hot air to all the rooms, with the added advantage that it starts and heats up much faster (15min) than with hot water circuit, which is very useful in second homes, when you arrive at the weekend, you are hot in less than an hour (hot air and walls still cold)!!.
With radiators it takes more than a day to heat the walls and little air!! (I have both types of houses and therefore I can compare!!)
I recommend both, both on stove or insert, hot water circulation for 50L balloon, almost instantaneous, if flambéed with wood, before the shower, and hot air circulator recovering all the calories lost in the smoke with a good exchanger at the outlet (watertight and overpressure in relation to the fumes)!!
the air circulation prevents the stove from overheating, dissipating the heat, even if the water does not circulate (however with safety valve)
The stoves almost never have a sufficient exchanger, which is measured by the exchange surface on the fumes, compared to the exchangers of gas boilers, which do not clog up quickly, with better efficiency!!
So all these stoves perform better at low power, if the combustion remains good.
Only expensive boilers have a consistent structure!!
For example, the maximum quantity needed at one time without being able to heat up, fixes the size of the balloon.
For example, one shower per month does not need more than 50 liters which is more than enough, the case at the seaside in summer where you bathe and shower outside!!
50L can be enough if you are careful to make a nice fire of wood before taking a shower!!
An automatic gas heater does it for you and therefore 50L works very well (less than 30 minutes of heating)!!
If the burning of wood could be automated, given the high instantaneous power, 50L are sufficient if you are careful not to be all taking your shower or bath at the same time!
I lived like this for a long time with a 50L balloon without difficulty!!
50L is liveable!!
It all depends on your lifestyle and your comfort requirements.
If it's not a disaster to have cold water sometimes in your shower, it's liveable!!
When I was a kid, we had almost none of this non-essential hot water comfort!!
In summer I rinse myself off from swimming in the sea, outside, in cold tap water, much warmer than the sea at the moment, given the mistral for a week, which has driven all the hot water towards Corsica, consequence of the bad weather on the rest of France !! !!!
Try the simplest circuit, (except pressure safety and overheating).
However, gas heating is infinitely simpler than a gas plant at home and therefore more reliable!!
Some diagrams are unnecessarily complicated to sell more material!!
Finally, the simplest wood, on insert or stove, is a hot air circulator which sends its hot air to all the rooms, with the added advantage that it starts and heats up much faster (15min) than with hot water circuit, which is very useful in second homes, when you arrive at the weekend, you are hot in less than an hour (hot air and walls still cold)!!.
With radiators it takes more than a day to heat the walls and little air!! (I have both types of houses and therefore I can compare!!)
I recommend both, both on stove or insert, hot water circulation for 50L balloon, almost instantaneous, if flambéed with wood, before the shower, and hot air circulator recovering all the calories lost in the smoke with a good exchanger at the outlet (watertight and overpressure in relation to the fumes)!!
the air circulation prevents the stove from overheating, dissipating the heat, even if the water does not circulate (however with safety valve)
The stoves almost never have a sufficient exchanger, which is measured by the exchange surface on the fumes, compared to the exchangers of gas boilers, which do not clog up quickly, with better efficiency!!
So all these stoves perform better at low power, if the combustion remains good.
Only expensive boilers have a consistent structure!!
0 x
Ok thank you dedeleco for this info,
for my part, I lean more and more on the island model of the Justus brand
http://www.energie-diffusion.com/detail ... 7604.29|fr
which is apparently the same model has kekchose close as the aqua belt of the oranier brand (same factory according to the commercial)
http://www.poele-chaudiere.com/Oranier/polar8A.htm
But cheaper.
The watercolor is also worth in terms of catch and efficiency, to see...
http://www.energie-diffusion.com/detail ... 1089010|fr
for my part, I lean more and more on the island model of the Justus brand
http://www.energie-diffusion.com/detail ... 7604.29|fr
which is apparently the same model has kekchose close as the aqua belt of the oranier brand (same factory according to the commercial)
http://www.poele-chaudiere.com/Oranier/polar8A.htm
But cheaper.
The watercolor is also worth in terms of catch and efficiency, to see...
http://www.energie-diffusion.com/detail ... 1089010|fr
0 x
These 3 stoves seem different, at least by the length of logs 33, 25 and 40cm!!!
By their yields, 82 or 77% (weak because exchanger of small surface to see one of the plans and fumes exiting at approximately 300°C) ????
by their different CO.
by their dimensions.
smoke outlet behind or above.
So different stoves in fact.
It seems to me that it is necessary to privilege the ease of cleaning of the stove, the exchanger, the ashes, the volume of the ashtray, often too small, and also the size of the logs, which should be at least 60cm for me.
The weight of more than 200Kg does not facilitate the movement of the stove and it is necessary to check that the ground is solid enough?
The arrival of combustion air from outside is very useful.
Drying the logs a little more under the stove improves the yield.
By their yields, 82 or 77% (weak because exchanger of small surface to see one of the plans and fumes exiting at approximately 300°C) ????
by their different CO.
by their dimensions.
smoke outlet behind or above.
So different stoves in fact.
It seems to me that it is necessary to privilege the ease of cleaning of the stove, the exchanger, the ashes, the volume of the ashtray, often too small, and also the size of the logs, which should be at least 60cm for me.
The weight of more than 200Kg does not facilitate the movement of the stove and it is necessary to check that the ground is solid enough?
The arrival of combustion air from outside is very useful.
Drying the logs a little more under the stove improves the yield.
0 x
-
the middle
- Econologue expert
- posts: 4075
- Registration: 12/01/07, 08:18
- x 4
Hello DD,
You raise a lot of relevant questions.
But I believe that the good stove does not exist.
Well yes, this is the case with almost all stoves, that's why I built a refractory brick recuperator in series with my stove. (the chimney temp drops to + - 80 degrees thanks to that, ) and it allows me to keep heating my house when the fire is out.
+1 for cleaning the exchanger, because it clogs quickly, and the performance collapses as a result.
60 cm for the logs, that's good, it brings down the price of wood, but I'd be surprised that an 8kw stove exists with such logs.
A good stove is always heavy. Do you want to move the stove to dust?
+1
I believe that there is already another post which speaks about the choice to be made for the wood stove.
That said, for me, a wood stove should be used for many things.
Cooking, heating several rooms, storing heat, heating sanitary water.
Finding such a stove is not easy, especially in 8kw.
I will edit, and add some links.
https://www.econologie.com/forums/recuperer- ... 51-20.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/ameliorati ... 70-70.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/rendement- ... 58-10.html
You raise a lot of relevant questions.
But I believe that the good stove does not exist.
By their yields, 82 or 77% (weak because exchanger of small surface to see one of the plans and fumes exiting at approximately 300°C) ????
Well yes, this is the case with almost all stoves, that's why I built a refractory brick recuperator in series with my stove. (the chimney temp drops to + - 80 degrees thanks to that, ) and it allows me to keep heating my house when the fire is out.
It seems to me that priority should be given to the ease of cleaning the stove, the exchanger, the ashes, the volume of the ashtray, which is often too small, and also the size of the logs, which should be at least 60cm for
+1 for cleaning the exchanger, because it clogs quickly, and the performance collapses as a result.
60 cm for the logs, that's good, it brings down the price of wood, but I'd be surprised that an 8kw stove exists with such logs.
The weight of more than 200Kg does not facilitate moving the stove and you have to check that the ground is strong enough?
A good stove is always heavy. Do you want to move the stove to dust?
The arrival of combustion air from outside is very useful.
Drying the logs a little more under the stove improves the yield.
+1
I believe that there is already another post which speaks about the choice to be made for the wood stove.
That said, for me, a wood stove should be used for many things.
Cooking, heating several rooms, storing heat, heating sanitary water.
Finding such a stove is not easy, especially in 8kw.
I will edit, and add some links.
https://www.econologie.com/forums/recuperer- ... 51-20.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/ameliorati ... 70-70.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/rendement- ... 58-10.html
0 x
Man is by nature a political animal (Aristotle)
Well yes, this is the case with almost all stoves, that's why I built a refractory brick recuperator in series with my stove.
Do you have any pictures of this setup? Because I imagined doing the same...
After more mature reflection and friendly proffessional referral (syleol)
I am now turning to the TAVO AQUA model from rika
http://www.syleol.com/rika.html
There is a page on the technical performance of this stove here.
http://rika.stroomop.be/fr/poeles-aqua/applications
What do you think of all the add-ons he's trying to sell at the end? 1000L balloon at 3000 euros! "pump group": 700 euros.
Is all of this useful?
0 x
At this level of size 1000L and price (11300€) you might as well take a good big efficient boiler, mixed wood and pellets, with solar???
But for 3 radiators and 60m2, it's absurd !!
Think about the optimum, depending on your needs, but the buffer tank, the expansion vessel, the circulator can be much smaller, paying attention to safety without getting encumbered and spending much more on annexes than in the stove.
The expansion tank is fixed by the volume of water, so everything decreases, if the size is decreased, depending on your 3 radiators.
The pros push the expense by not calculating anything!!!
Everything is done to explode the price, with nothing for 3 radiators!!!!
So what is the volume of water in your radiators, in the stove, what autonomy you want, what is the thermal capacity of your transformation into a mass stove (8h to 12h requires 0,5 to 1 ton, which is calculated), etc...?
In my opinion, any pipes passing through the heat storage in a DIY mass stove will heat the water with a simplistic circulator, and the thermal mass will make a thermal balloon with almost no balloon!!
This also avoids overheating of the water no longer passing through the fireplace.
Difficulty, do-it-yourself and need to better understand the operation to ensure safety, of a personal system, around a simple stove without water at the start, with exchanger and thermal mass at the outlet.
Look on econology, some have done it, personal mass stove or hot water.
By the way, what were these 3 radiators connected to before?
Personally, I would have tended to keep the old system and to heat with wood with a stove or an insert with an independent hot air circulator, which greatly reduces the heating bill with little investment, or absence of heating if it breaks down, error, or absence.
But for 3 radiators and 60m2, it's absurd !!
Think about the optimum, depending on your needs, but the buffer tank, the expansion vessel, the circulator can be much smaller, paying attention to safety without getting encumbered and spending much more on annexes than in the stove.
The expansion tank is fixed by the volume of water, so everything decreases, if the size is decreased, depending on your 3 radiators.
The pros push the expense by not calculating anything!!!
Everything is done to explode the price, with nothing for 3 radiators!!!!
So what is the volume of water in your radiators, in the stove, what autonomy you want, what is the thermal capacity of your transformation into a mass stove (8h to 12h requires 0,5 to 1 ton, which is calculated), etc...?
In my opinion, any pipes passing through the heat storage in a DIY mass stove will heat the water with a simplistic circulator, and the thermal mass will make a thermal balloon with almost no balloon!!
This also avoids overheating of the water no longer passing through the fireplace.
Difficulty, do-it-yourself and need to better understand the operation to ensure safety, of a personal system, around a simple stove without water at the start, with exchanger and thermal mass at the outlet.
Look on econology, some have done it, personal mass stove or hot water.
By the way, what were these 3 radiators connected to before?
Personally, I would have tended to keep the old system and to heat with wood with a stove or an insert with an independent hot air circulator, which greatly reduces the heating bill with little investment, or absence of heating if it breaks down, error, or absence.
0 x
-
the middle
- Econologue expert
- posts: 4075
- Registration: 12/01/07, 08:18
- x 4
I found it:
dedeleco wrote:By the way, what were these 3 radiators connected to before?
Personally I would have tended to keep the old system
On nothing because it does not yet exist! it was electric heaters, a real pain what ...
So all the installation has to be done.
The salesman wants to piss me off as much as possible, that's for sure, but he tells me that if the balloon is too small, it's overheating and it's the valve that will engage at some point and it's not wrong in one way. but hey, I don't think I'll take a balloon over 300L.
We are thinking more and more and we are now turning to a lohberger brand wood stove / boiler
http://www.lohberger.com/fr/haushalt/pr ... varioline/
We say to ourselves that quite to heat the water as well as to cook with it and thus avoid the gas bottle.
And then the day we will have no more gas anywhere we will not regret it!
Stove enthusiasts already?
0 x
-
Philippe Schutt
- Econologue expert
- posts: 1611
- Registration: 25/12/05, 18:03
- Location: Alsace
- x 33
wood stove, we have very good French, Godin or Deville for example, no need to look elsewhere, it's not better apart from the spiel.
your heating engineer must have estimated the volume of the balloon for about 24 hours, hence the 1000L. You can get rid of it by not putting thermostatic valves on the radiators, but then you no longer have 24 hours of heat on the tank but 2-3 hours.
For these small volumes, regulation is the problem, hence my advice to look at pellet stoves-boilers, which saves you the buffer tank and the specific safety features for wood-logs. Indeed, it is better to be able to regulate the volume of fuel than to have to compensate for uncontrolled variations. it's much cheaper and cleaner.
your heating engineer must have estimated the volume of the balloon for about 24 hours, hence the 1000L. You can get rid of it by not putting thermostatic valves on the radiators, but then you no longer have 24 hours of heat on the tank but 2-3 hours.
For these small volumes, regulation is the problem, hence my advice to look at pellet stoves-boilers, which saves you the buffer tank and the specific safety features for wood-logs. Indeed, it is better to be able to regulate the volume of fuel than to have to compensate for uncontrolled variations. it's much cheaper and cleaner.
0 x
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