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sen-no-sen
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by sen-no-sen » 14/05/15, 15:57

moinsdewatt wrote:This whole story is as stupid as the air-powered car.
it will end the same as the quirks of Guy Négre. In the technical bins of history.


The compressed air car is not stupid, it is a device that works very well.
Such a device has no connection with the on-unit, there is, as for electric vehicles energy expenditure that is upstream of the device and is not negligible.
This being the case, a compressed air vehicle has its place in a closed atmosphere (hangar, warehouse, underground, mine, etc.).
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by Janic » 14/05/15, 16:57

exponential increase in energy production at each loop: 4 kw / h in input then 12 in output, then 12 in input and 20 in output, then 20 in input 28 in exit and so on until obtaining a production of several megawatts.
Or to make it easier to couple the machine with itself, instead of using 4kw / h input, used 12 output, which would proportionally increase the power of the device, until explode ...
Passed a certain amount of energy one could also proportionally increase the size of the device and theoretically produce more energy than what emerges the center of the earth ...
If that kind of reasoning doesn't make you "think" about the huge error that emerges.

But where are they going to look for all this?
I remind you that I do not credit or discredit the system, so I try to understand it.
First thing, it's not about getting 12kw from the show machine that had provided a smaller amount of a few kw (still depending on the site) and the 12 kw / h machine made 6 meters deep. Apart from this no data on the balloons (diameter, length) nor their difference, nor the time of ascent, etc ... each element determining the speed of rotation, the effort provided, the torque thus and the final power
There is therefore no risk of runaway since the consumption / supply ratio is dependent on the size of each machine.
But if someone has the data in question the calculation can then be done according to the most basic rules known.

for the compressed air car, the system is indeed ideal in very specific environments as at risk of explosion or ignition. It is therefore a very specific niche. As a reminder, the Negro project was dual-use: compressed air and thermal relay as hybrid vehicles.
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by Ahmed » 15/05/15, 08:17

Of course, the runaway in question should not be understood for a given machine, but in relation to the principle (sic!) Invoked and which demonstrates the absurdity: an energy that would increase itself to infinity ...

You write:
But if someone has the data in question, the calculation can then be done according to the most basic rules known.

The system described can be likened to a lever-arm effect: the energy consumed by the compressor is, according to the promoters, low, but would be converted into a higher power thanks to the Archimedes thrust. Why not? The torque transmitted to the axis can increase if its speed is reduced in the same proportion ...
Where the shoe pinch is that this speed must then be multiplied to drive the alternator => decrease in torque and we are left with the initial configuration, less losses ...

With a lever I can lift a load too heavy for my strength, but, in return, I would produce a large movement in exchange for a minimal movement and slow. If it were necessary to move very heavy loads quickly, there would be no alternative but to increase the initial power.
These are the most basic rules known ...
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by Janic » 15/05/15, 10:47

Ahmed hello
Of course, the runaway in question should not be understood for a given machine, but in relation to the principle (sic!) Invoked and which demonstrates the absurdity: an energy that would increase itself to infinity ...
I think there is confusion. There is no runaway possible since the production of energy (announced) is related to the size of the machine or it would be considered that a waterfall is a runaway energy compared to tap on the sink.

You write:
Quote:
But if someone has the data in question, the calculation can then be done according to the most basic rules known.


The system described can be likened to a lever-arm effect: the energy consumed by the compressor is, according to the promoters, low, but would be converted into a higher power thanks to the Archimedes thrust. Why not? The torque transmitted to the axis can increase if its speed is reduced in the same proportion ...
Until then agree since this is the case.

Where the shoe pinch is that this speed must then be multiplied to drive the alternator => decrease in torque and we are left with the initial configuration, less losses ...
Always right! According to my (approximate) calculations, I do not even reach one-tenth of the announced power, but I have no information about the actual parameters. The question is: what are the unknown parameters?
Then: either there is a scam and in this case the services of control and repression of frauds will come into play before the industrialization, or its promise, and the promoters of the system will end up in prison (What n ' this is not the case since the beginning of the demonstrations which could be controlled by competent professionals, at least we can suppose it); or their system is really reliable and it will take its place on the market !. Just wait! Indeed, given the size of the devices (6m is already a beautiful baby!) It is not within the reach of anyone and potential buyers can be with sufficient financial surface and therefore technicians, lawyers, etc ... supposed to be cautious in this case.
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by moinsdewatt » 15/05/15, 12:42

Ahmed wrote:Of course, the runaway in question should not be understood for a given machine, but in relation to the principle (sic!) Invoked and which demonstrates the absurdity: an energy that would increase itself to infinity ...

You write:
But if someone has the data in question, the calculation can then be done according to the most basic rules known.

The system described can be likened to a lever-arm effect: the energy consumed by the compressor is, according to the promoters, low, but would be converted into a higher power thanks to the Archimedes thrust. Why not? The torque transmitted to the axis can increase if its speed is reduced in the same proportion ...
Where the shoe pinch is that this speed must then be multiplied to drive the alternator => decrease in torque and we are left with the initial configuration, less losses ...

With a lever I can lift a load too heavy for my strength, but, in return, I would produce a large movement in exchange for a minimal movement and slow. If it were necessary to move very heavy loads quickly, there would be no alternative but to increase the initial power.
These are the most basic rules known ...


there is no leverage in this scam.

If the Archimedean force causes the bubbles to rise, it is because it was necessary to inject the corresponding energy into the air by the compressor.

The system only recovers a little (with losses) the energy of compression of the air.
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by izentrop » 15/05/15, 14:26

Hello,
As soon as I see the word "free" associated with energy, a little game kicks in: finding the "scam", even if it is not always deliberate.

In this case, for the "5 kwh" version it is said that the energy comes from the buoyancy of Archimedes.

When viewed from nose and taking wide, each cylinder makes 50 cm on 16 cm in diameter, which makes about 10 liters and 196 joules of potential energy on 2 m in height.

Less than 200 w power for a filled cylinder per second that must match the mechanical losses.

As a result, the so-called generator can only be the driving force of this lark mirror. :?
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by Ahmed » 15/05/15, 14:46

On the issue of runaway, it seems difficult to be clearer,Janic: read carefully what I wrote ...

On the fact that the sellers of this system are not in prison, the argument does not seem convincing to me: overunity is not a crime. Moreover, many examples show that it is possible to market "bogus" processes, as long as they are not immediately dangerous.

A small calculation shows that the initial ratio being 1 / 3, assuming that 1 is reinjected to feed the compressor, a gain of twice the unit is obtained; suppose this gain is used to run a larger model (double), we have 2 as input and a gain of 6-2 = 4 as output; same operation with a third apparatus: 4 input and a gain of 24-4 = 20, etc ... With about twenty devices you will cover the needs of Germany, since each time you double and that the curve tends to an exponential.

Moinsdewatt: there is no leverage, but I speak by analogy, since the lever is simpler than this device intended to confuse the understanding of potential dupes.
The essence of its psychological functioning is based on the fact that "the bigger it is, the more credible it is".
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by izentrop » 15/05/15, 15:20

I don't see any leverage effect either, just the use of the formula: "Any body submerged in water comes out wet" Jean-Paul Belmondo : Lol:
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by Janic » 15/05/15, 17:01

With about twenty devices you will cover the needs of Germany, since each time you double and that the curve tends towards an exponential one. for that it would need multitudes of high devices like the tower Effel. It becomes delirious!
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by Ahmed » 15/05/15, 19:41

I do not speak of a multitude, but about twenty; in what way would a height comparable to that of towers be delirious?
On the other hand, I do not seek to demonstrate a practical possibility, but to underline the principled absurdity of this device so simple and that would have escaped however a string of scientists and technicians who spend their time to develop machines otherwise elaborated , governed by equations of a rigorous constancy and always checked.
This machine does not differ from anything that proliferates on the web and never succeeds, regardless of the patience of their naive admirers.

Recently, on another forum, another process was discussed and one of the spokespersons of this project was able to speak, unfortunately, this was only to invoke technical secrecy and be content to question those who dared to express their doubts about the validity of the claims of the "inventors".
Very wisely, the thread was closed until details about this smoky project can be used.
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