Heat pump with mechanical energy

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Jp47
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Heat pump with mechanical energy




by Jp47 » 29/09/22, 10:46

Hello,

I am looking to see if there are any heat pumps whose compressor would be driven by a source of mechanical energy (in my case of hydraulic origin, I have a stream with the ruins of a 17th century mill whose reach is operational and can easily be equipped with a paddle wheel).
I would not want to go through an alternator producing current because too much investment and Kafkaesque regulations).
Even a primitive or moderate yield system would interest me.

The only mechanically driven compressors that I find are compressors from heavy trucks or construction machinery.
It goes without saying that since the main energy is free, the regulation is not my main concern and I would like to avoid sophisticated electronic systems as much as possible in favor of rustic electromechanics (I have already given with reversible air conditioning whose cards give up after 6 or 7 years and which are sold at prohibitive prices when there is still the chance that they are available)

My objective is simple: to have an almost free heating backup (excluding investment) in winter (when the flow of the stream is high).

I don't see this concept described anywhere, but I imagine that it may have existed at the beginning of the 20th century at least for refrigeration machines.

Thank you for your comments and suggestions.
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phil59
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Re: Heat pump with mechanical energy




by phil59 » 29/09/22, 11:14

Hello, the pb is that there will be icing, and it is necessary to plan phases of defrosting, so it takes a minimum of electronics I think ....

I leave it to the specialists to answer, I don't know enough about it....
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Re: Heat pump with mechanical energy




by Ahmed » 29/09/22, 11:21

If a priori nothing opposes this kind of assembly, remains the concern of the regulation: at certain times the compressor must stop supplying energy, when the setpoint of temperature of the room is reached. An electromagnetic clutch could possibly perform this function. The problem of icing could be circumvented by using a water/water heat pump, but this is less commonly used...
If the flow is sufficient, wouldn't it still be easier to connect a generator and install stupid toasters?
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Re: Heat pump with mechanical energy




by Jp47 » 29/09/22, 12:55

Thank you for these first reviews.

I specify my intentions, given the presence of the mill reach, there are >800 m3 permanently available at a minimum temperature of 6°C (measured after 8 days of low temperatures: D-10/N-15 lot and Garonne 2002)
So it will be glycol water/water for the heat pump with a possible buffer reserve of 2000 l.
No need for air conditioning operation.

As for the part to be heated (large stone house of 240 m2) I will use all the heat produced, it would only be an extra 20 to 50%. The other heat sources will stop.

For a turbine/alternator it is unfortunately regulated with 5 years of administrative procedures and a huge cost because it is necessary to have an impact study carried out and to plan numerous developments. 10 kW or 2 MW it's the same rules (yes we walk on the head, it's like the mill that it would be legally impossible to put back into service...)
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Re: Heat pump with mechanical energy




by Ahmed » 29/09/22, 13:37

I don't understand the option of the 2000 L buffer, since the flow is abundant?
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Re: Heat pump with mechanical energy




by sicetaitsimple » 29/09/22, 14:45

Jp47 wrote:For a turbine/alternator it is unfortunately regulated with 5 years of administrative procedures and a huge cost because it is necessary to have an impact study carried out and to plan numerous developments. 10 kW or 2 MW it's the same rules (yes we walk on the head, it's like the mill that it would be legally impossible to put back into service...)


Just to understand, you say:
- impossible to install a turbine, too long, too expensive
- the mill would be impossible to put back into service according to the regulations

I wish to believe. But what do you imagine building that would be regulatory compliant and not too long or expensive?
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Re: Heat pump with mechanical energy




by phil59 » 29/09/22, 16:39

Water rights are special in France.

Even for your own use, even putting a 3 kW generator is not allowed, while it slows down nothing .....

If it's a waterfall, I think it's different....
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Re: Heat pump with mechanical energy




by Christophe » 29/09/22, 17:16

Ahmed wrote:If a priori nothing opposes this kind of assembly, remains the concern of the regulation: at certain times the compressor must stop supplying energy, when the setpoint of temperature of the room is reached. An electromagnetic clutch could possibly perform this function. The problem of icing could be circumvented by using a water/water heat pump, but this is less commonly used...
If the flow is sufficient, wouldn't it still be easier to connect a generator and install stupid toasters?


+1 for the regulation which will necessarily be less fine than with an electronic inverter!

Yes for coupling by clutch it will make an all or nothing heat pump and well it's better than nothing! : Cheesy:

I am not a heat pump specialist but AMHA I do not think that the defrost cycle makes the compressor turn upside down (impossible on a spiral compressor that we see in most cold groups): it reverses the direction of the fluid / gas ...via a bypass system fully compatible with a "mechanical" heat pump...

Otherwise, simpler, provide defrosting...electric...with a system of anti-icing or anti-freezing wires that you put on certain heating ducts...this is, I think, the simplest solution (for a few kWh per year...)...
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Re: Heat pump with mechanical energy




by Forhorse » 29/09/22, 21:05

I'm having trouble seeing what regulations can prohibit you from using the motion of a water wheel/turbine to spin an alternator.

There are steps if you want to sell the current produced on the network yes, but for local use, whether the wheel drives a grinding wheel or an alternator makes no difference.

The water regulations will be the same whether your mill is used to stir the wind or to produce electricity.

In short, I think there is a misunderstanding about the regulations, and it is not a gas plant that will allow them to be circumvented.
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Re: Heat pump with mechanical energy




by Ahmed » 29/09/22, 21:43

The regulations on the use of the driving force of water are quite draconian: before mounting anything, it is necessary to obtain the green light from the administration, which requires proof that the he work predates the Revolution. It's easy when it's figured on the map of Cassini, but not everything is represented there and it is then up to the owner to gather proof of this anteriority... There are also limits and additional constraints for the exploitation of this mill, according to the hydraulic characteristics of the course of water at the expense of which the abstraction takes place (which is justified).
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