Using glaciers as a source of electrical energy

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
nanook
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 7
Registration: 23/03/10, 05:27

Using glaciers as a source of electrical energy




by nanook » 25/03/10, 05:29

Hello,

I did a lot of research on a subject that I heard about a long time ago, but no way to find an answer, this says my research bring me to this site that I find very nice. So finally I decided to settle down here.

I have heard of and even of carrying out a kind of construction of the kind running engines thanks to the advance of the glaciers. Basically the glaciers descend which is a colossal energy usable to create electricity.

So my goal to research is simply to have info on the sites to use, if it's still current of course and why not links.

Thank you in advance
Nanook
0 x
Ptilu
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 196
Registration: 15/01/10, 14:23




by Ptilu » 25/03/10, 12:38

Uh ...
The hydroelectric dam ????
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 25/03/10, 13:07

Recovering melting water from a glacier to operate a dam as mentioned above ptilu, it exists, but recovering the kinetic energy of a dam is something I have never heard of .
Technically it would be very complex and expensive given the results.
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 25/03/10, 13:32

sen-no-sen wrote:Recovering melting water from a glacier to operate a dam as mentioned above ptilu, it exists, but recovering the kinetic energy of a dam is something I have never heard of .
Technically it would be very complex and expensive given the results.


By recovering the kinetic energy of a dam (typing error), I thought of recovering the kinetic energy of the glacier.
0 x
nanook
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 7
Registration: 23/03/10, 05:27




by nanook » 25/03/10, 18:11

Yes, I saw a program very ... very, very, long time ago. It was a bit like the wheels ink in ice connecting well to engines. When the glacier moves, which is kinetic with a lot of inertia, without a real variation in speed. Even if the speed is very slow the inertia is monstrous. So the motors can recover colossal energy.

Now I find nothing on the net about it. I saw this program or documentary over 10 years ago :D

Nobody has really heard of it? ... a project that will fall into the water (arf the melting of ice is terrible ^^)?
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10

fun idea




by dedeleco » 25/03/10, 19:23

The maximum power recoverable from the massive and slow movement of a glacier is (as in electricity) when it is slowed down to half its speed with very slow alternators and reducers (1 to 25 m per day) and immense forces! !
Try, stop or slow down a glacier, even mountains do not arrive and are planed !!
Also very difficult compared to a liquid water dam on the fusion water which drops quickly from thousands of meters !!!
Try to recover the energy of a frozen mass of 86,4 tonnes (3 large trucks) which descends from 1 meter of difference in level per day instead of a small waterfall of 1 liter per second on 1 meter high !!! (86400 seconds per day) !!!
If you arrive at the same result in power, then we can do it on millions of tonnes (a small glacier of 100m3!), Then on billions of tonnes, the Km3.
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 25/03/10, 20:25

it is not kinetic energy but potential energy which is to recover

the mass of ice is heavy, it only asks to descend: leaving the glacier all alone all the energy is lost in friction between the ice and the rock

should we put the glmacier on roulette to reduce friction and recover energy by alternator driven by these roulette?

roulette is not the word! it would rather be huge wheel! unimaginable ...

easier: melt the glacier and turbinate the water: but why build something that will not work long, once the glacier has melted it will take centuries to recover, or will never recover if the oracles of global warming are right
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 25/03/10, 21:28

it is not kinetic energy but potential energy which is to recover

Do you know how to recover potential energy (still), (gravitational, electrostatic, thermal, or nuclear) without moving or changing ????
If you know, tell me !!!!

leaving the glacier alone all the energy is lost in friction between the ice and the rock

Right, that's why you have to slow down half its speed to recover half of this energy lost in friction and fusion.

once the glacier has melted it will take centuries to recover

We do not take everything from the glacier, but only what moves or melts per year on average (a few meters per day), to keep the glacier intact, so that it does not disappear and therefore there is no need to reconstitute the glacier. We have to adapt to real unpredictable change in the short term, but, without CO2, we are approaching a slow glaciation, with certainty for the next millennium.
0 x
nanook
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 7
Registration: 23/03/10, 05:27




by nanook » 26/03/10, 03:56

Good point, moreover if we recover energy it means that we will slow down some by that speed in one way or another, which means that winter after winter it mass will increase more than normal (... or will melt slower since all glaciers take a hit) so more energy? ^^, in short it will be a way in a certain way to save certain glacier ^^

In short, at the start of my question:
I would be wrong this method does not currently exist?
No one has heard of such an achievement?

PS: The speed of descent will vary depending on the mass, the mountain rock itself, and the path: zigzag, straight, and angle of the slope. Example: In the Chamonix valley, the Mer de Glace which winds over more than 11 km in length descending from 100m per year, therefore an average of 27cm per day.
0 x
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538




by Obamot » 27/03/10, 19:47

All this is not without danger!

The mechanism by which we can explain the problem and applicable to this case, which allows to multiply / recover energy in physics has been known for a long time, even a very long time, it is called "The moment".
It has been exploited from very ancient times by the leverage effect, then in the invention of the wheel, and it seems to me that it applies to this case, since the "tongue" of the glacier winds on itself at the pediment of the glacier.

If we accept this simplification of the explanation, the formula ... is:

- "the force" "X" (multiplied by) "the lever arm."

With 2 tons of thrust "X" (multiplied by) a lever arm of 10 meters, we obtain 20 tons of thrust (ie 2 X 10T = 20T).

However with the advance of the glacier "the moment" represented by the slope of the glacier is very weak since all the weight of the glacier is attracted towards the center of the earth. It is therefore only a "moment" relative to the gradient of the terrain that should be calculated and from which the braking due to friction on the ground should be removed. Suffice to say that there is not much left.

The idea was not stupid, but one should not confuse "the potential force" with its real effect.

So certainly the glacier is advancing ... but its residual kinetic energy is relatively very low compared to the mass. The proof is that with its gigantic mass it moves very slowly.

The problem certainly in this case is a poor performance.

One idea (if at all feasible) would be to improve this yield ... but the main enemy is Earth's attraction.

Security issue would not be optimal either. Because if we nevertheless managed to increase the output, we could very quickly end up with large moving masses, out of control, which potentially could hurtle down the valleys. The mountain is a hostile and unpredictable environment where the vagaries of the weather act as amplifiers ...

A bit like what had happened in Gondo, where half of a village had been entwined and trained ... (10 houses, roads etc ...)
http://archives.tsr.ch/search?q_doc-id= ... ophe-gondo

But this energy is not lost, however, as we noted the comrades above, since this dam melts, turns into water, and man recovers it and domesticates it in dams. There he increases the moment by accelerating the mass, thanks to the height of the fall which he causes and to the energy which he recovers at the climax of his power, at the very bottom, and sometimes he even uses "penstocks" .
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 188 guests