Thermal wind turbine?

[BaudouinLabrique]

In order to broaden the possibilities of reaching more members, I am posting here what I have already posted elsewhere but grouped together to avoid having to answer questions whose answers were already under the proposed links. therefore, before criticizing, contesting, thank you for taking the trouble to read as much as possible what is under the proposed links.

To produce heat in Low tech, there is a solution which was nevertheless developed in Denmark from the first oil shock: WIND THERMAL TURBINE ! System using the Joule effect (heat produced by hydraulic brake).

« The thermal aerogenerator is a system that converts wind energy into stored heat, when it is not needed, in a well-insulated water tank. These systems are probably the most practical and cost effective way to use wind energy in a home today. »
(Mc Cutcheon, Sean, Wind Power, Ottawa, Office of Conservation and Renewable Energy, 1981, p. 14: quoted by https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2a ... R%20HEATER)

« A heat generator based on this principle is simply akin to a wind-powered paddle wheel inserted into a heat-insulated water tank. »

Which is my case and my personal project: “ It is also possible to couple a mechanical wind turbine to a heat pump, which can be less expensive than using a gas boiler or an electric heat pump powered by a wind turbine (wind turbine dedicated to the production of electricity ). »
(Cf. https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/fr/20 ... dmill.html)

This system could therefore be connected underground (so as to improve heat transfer) to the collector of the glycol water circuit (see photo); it is accessible about 20 m from the place where there is already a cubicle which will this time no longer be used as a rainwater reserve, but as a heat-generating tank and supporting the wind turbine.

In view of what follows, this type of wind turbine, which produces heat directly, appears to be without doubt the best solution: "This technology has a yield 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, i.e. i.e. involving the step of conversion into electricity”.

The heat produced in this way is then directly used to heat the glycol water in the heat pump's geothermal circuit.
A Savonius wind turbine (at low altitude ca 4 m) which produces heat by Joule effect via the hydraulic brake exerted could then do the trick.

The accessibility of the system would also make it possible to be able, after an initial installation, on the one hand, to optimize the height of the mast and, on the other hand, to attempt to judiciously add a Darrieus H rotor to it higher (placed higher and asynchronous) to increase performance if necessary
(Cf. http://www.retrouversonnord.be/HYBRIDE- ... RRIEUS.pdf).

Without the (penalizing) intermediary that is electricity production, there are therefore significantly fewer losses and also less expensive equipment (electricity generator, electronic conversion devices, pump, solenoid valves... and all, sources of potential damage).

NB This book in English is partially accessible on Google Books: https://books.google.be/books?id=mEtBN5 ... 2C&f=false

Yet, surprisingly, almost ignored by authorities and other promoters of renewable energies, " the heat-producing wind turbine solves the main defects of wind energy, namely: its low energy density and its intermittency ". It is then appropriate to " using similar models to produce heat makes it possible to reduce their “embodied energy” (“embodied energy”: energy necessary during the life of a product, excluding use: manufacturing, transport, maintenance, recycling, etc.) costs, as well as increasing their lifespan and improving their performance ».
« […] in the case of the Savonius micro-wind turbine used by scientists as a model (rotor diameter 0,5 m, mast height 2 m), calculations made it possible to determine that the optimal diameter of the propeller was 0,388m. » ; “[i][…] the Savonius wind turbine, on the other hand, turns out to be a very good candidate for heat production: this small wind turbine managed to generate up to 1 kW of thermal power (at a wind speed of 15 m /s). »
(Details : https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yu ... achine.pdf )

Excerpt from my study on the subject and accessible here (from page 4): https://www.retrouversonnord.be/glycolee.pdf

Photo : https://www.retrouversonnord.be/Eolienne-thermique.jpg

DETAILS:

" Renewable energy production is almost entirely devoted to generating electricity. However, the energy we use the most is in the form of heat, which can only be produced indirectly by photovoltaic panels or wind turbines with a fairly low yield. A solar thermal collector makes it possible to avoid the stage of conversion into electricity and thus provides renewable thermal energy in a direct and more efficient way."

" Direct heat generation is less expensive, can (depending on conditions) be more efficient, and is more sustainable than indirect heat generation".

" Solar thermal energy can be used for the production of domestic hot water, for heating or for industrial processes. In addition, this technology yields 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, that is to say involving the stage of conversion into electricity."

"The direct equivalent of wind energy is the mill, an ancestral technique known to everyone and at least 2 years old. The rotational energy from the rotor was transmitted directly to the shaft of a machine, which whether it is a wood saw or a grit wheel. Although old, this method retains all its relevance today, especially when combined with new systems, in that it offers better performance only by converting the energy into electricity and then back into rotational energy.[/i]"

“Another important factor is the reduction in the cost of thermal storage, in the order of -60 to 70% compared to a battery solution or the use or backup generators."

“Then converting wind or solar energy directly into heat (or mechanical energy) can have a higher efficiency than when an energy conversion takes place. This means that fewer solar or wind energy converters are necessary - and therefore less space and resources - to provide a given amount of heat.In short, the heat-producing wind turbine solves the main shortcomings of wind energy, namely: its low energy density and its intermittency."

" Finally, the production of direct heat significantly improves the profitability and durability of small wind power installations. Experiments have shown that small wind turbines producing electricity have very poor yields and do not always produce enough energy to compensate for that necessary for their manufacture. 12 On the other hand, using similar models to produce heat makes it possible to reduce their "embodied energy" ('embodied energy': energy necessary during the life of a product, excluding use (manufacturing, transport, maintenance, recycling, etc.). .)) and costs, as well as increasing their service life and improving their performance."

" The performance of one of Denmark's first small heat-producing wind turbines was officially tested. The Calorius type 37 – 9 meters high and equipped with a 5 meter diameter rotor – produced 3,5 kilowatts of heat for a wind speed of 11 m/s (strong breeze, Beaufort 6). This is comparable to the heat produced by smaller boilers used for space heating. Between 1993 and 2000, the Danish company Westrup built a total of 34 wind turbines, 17 of which were still in operation in 2012. 7"

" A larger hydraulic brake wind turbine (7,5 meters in diameter, 17 meter mast) was built in 1982 by the Svaneborg brothers and heated the house of one of the two (while the other had opted for a wind turbine and an electric heating system). Composed of 3 blades made of fiberglass, the wind turbine produced up to 8 kilowatts of heat, according to unofficial measurements – which is comparable to the power delivered by the electric boiler of a small detached house. 7"
https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/fr/20 ... dmill.html

AMORTIZATION :

It is amortized quickly: the French students have indeed established the following:

"In this part, we want to compare the cost of using a conventional electric water heater and our system. We consider a balloon of volume [...]
Assuming a kWh price of €0,17 (while the kWh price will probably be higher in the near future), the use of an electric water heater comes at an annual cost of €745.
The cost of a low-tech 200W wind turbine is around €350 [3]. By estimating the mixer part at the same cost, we arrive at a complete cost of our system of 700€. So we get our return on investment in approximately 1 year."
and in fact, since the price of the kWh in Belgium is triple, the amortization will be done in 4 months for the ECS.
https://www.retrouversonnord.be/HotEole ... eolien.pdf

[Ahmed]

If the objective is to produce heat, it is easier and more rational to proceed directly and not go through the production of an intermediate vector such as electricity.
However, if we consider that heat is a degraded form of energy (which does not mean that it is useless!), we understand the interest of the production of electricity which has many uses. more varied and more valuable: we quite rightly speak of exergy to characterize this gradient in uses.

[BaudouinLabrique]

If the objective is to produce heat, it is easier and more rational to proceed directly and not go through the production of an intermediate vector such as electricity.
However, if we consider that heat is a degraded form of energy (which does not mean that it is useless!), we understand the interest of the production of electricity which has many uses. more varied and more valuable: we quite rightly speak of exergy to characterize this gradient in uses.

"the interest of electricity production", you say, but as described with poor performance and costly intermediaries and sources of damage and with a limited lifespan (see my introductory post) .

NB The obsession with all-electrics has made it forget or dismiss the virtues of Low tech and in addition which allows access to citizen autonomy not only easier, more sustainable but also much more affordable financially (significantly less material and achievable that with recycled).

[Ahmed]

It is possible that renewable energies are poorly suited to the production of electricity due to their diffuse nature and the losses linked to the process, but for certain uses, the quality of this vector prevails and can compensate for these limitations.
We are in perfect agreement, as I have already specified, on the fact that the production of hot water directly is simpler and indeed requires less sophisticated equipment, such as the solar water heater which is widespread everywhere for these reasons.

[sicetaitsimple]

Obviously, it seems more "comfortable" to create a new thread rather than answer the questions that have been asked on the previous one....renewable-energy/water-mill-hydraulic-energy-and-central-heating-t11531-20.html.
I'll just copy the last one:
"I just notice that you mix everything up, intentionally or not. Because in your first post, you write:
"In view of the following, this type of wind turbine which produces heat directly, appears to be undoubtedly the best solution: "This technology has a yield 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, that is- i.e. involving the step of converting to electricity."
whereas what is written in your article is:
"Solar thermal energy can be used for the production of domestic hot water, heating or industrial processes. In addition, this technology has a yield 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, i.e. say involving the step of conversion into electricity."

What are you talking about? Solar thermal or wind?

[BaudouinLabrique]

Obviously, it seems more "comfortable" to create a new thread rather than answer the questions that have been asked on the previous one....renewable-energy/water-mill-hydraulic-energy-and-central-heating-t11531-20.html.
I'll just copy the last one:
"I just notice that you mix everything up, intentionally or not. Because in your first post, you write:
"In view of the following, this type of wind turbine which produces heat directly, appears to be undoubtedly the best solution: "This technology has a yield 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, that is- i.e. involving the step of converting to electricity."
whereas what is written in your article is:
"Solar thermal energy can be used for the production of domestic hot water, heating or industrial processes. In addition, this technology has a yield 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, i.e. say involving the step of conversion into electricity."

What are you talking about? Solar thermal or wind?

I ignore the (erroneous) trial of intent.

For the rest, it seemed to me that it was obvious: wind power, well! ; I do not mix anything at all because I have NEVER spoken of solar thermal! It is a question here (perhaps it is necessary to repeat it) of heat produced not by the sun by the wind!

My arms are falling!

[sicetaitsimple]

on the fact that the production of hot water in a direct way is simpler and requires, indeed, less sophisticated materials, such as the solar water heater which is widespread everywhere for these reasons.

It's completely debatable.
On the one hand because, at least in our latitudes, a solar water heater requires an electrical supplement to not far from 100% of the needs for the winter months.
On the other hand because it is essentially plumbing subject to very strong daily temperature variations which is not necessarily "simple" to operate over time without maintenance interventions, especially since it generally happens on the roof.

[sicetaitsimple]

My arms are falling!

And your performance ratio of 2 to 3 too...Reread your source.

[BaudouinLabrique]

My arms are falling!

And your performance ratio of 2 to 3 too...Reread your source.

This is the result of the observations and it seems logical to me since there are no intermediaries and conversion by nature curbing
(reminder : https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/fr/20 ... dmill.html)

[Ahmed]

I mentioned solar thermal (which works well in appropriate cases) because I am much more reserved about the possibilities of small wind as presented here.