The future will pass you it with biomass?

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Bardal
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by Bardal » 04/04/18, 01:30

bardal wrote:Bof, Gardanne is undoubtedly a delusional project, but nothing guarantees us against a new Gardanne ... Some elected officials, or high-level officials, are fond of such projects and generous with public funds from the moment these projects guarantee them some appearances in the media. There are even specialists in the matter, remember some photovoltaic road, or the electric vehicles of Deux-Sèvres ...

Let us also be wary of a little too valiant optimism in the face of the ill-supported statements of the various speakers, no doubt largely overdetermined, and limited, by the functions they exercise; contrary to what is said here and there, the product of the French forest would be exploited to more than 75%, and not 50, and it is not certain that the remaining 25% will one day be exploited in full; perhaps it is also not desirable. We must not confuse the wood sold, and the wood actually used as combustible biomass ...

Read here on these questions http://www.lutopik.com/Lutopik_8web.pdf

Perhaps it would be wise to reserve this use of wood energy for local uses - domestic consumption, heating network of modest size ... - rather than being systematically included in a centralized commercial and industrial circuit; while preserving the "part of the soil" essential for the regeneration of forest soils. Certainly this would not do the business of the traders and industrialists mentioned above, it would also have the second advantage of diluting the known drawbacks of biomass incineration ("wood" heating is, by far, the first microphone transmitter. -particles and NOX, well before diesel if decried) and the constraints of its transport ...

It would undoubtedly be less publicized, and moreover less visible, but undoubtedly more effective (there are nearly 20 million buildings heated with hydrocarbons, which only ask to be "substituted"; there will be some besides not for everyone, wood) than to produce - badly - electricity with wood from Canada or Brazil ...
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by chatelot16 » 04/04/18, 09:02

burning wood just for heat is not the best solution

burning wood to make both electricity and heat is much better: heat to use nearby, electricity to power the heat pumps of those who are too far away ... with current technical means we can do much better than just burn to heat

the construction of big wood boiler, seems sad, it's just a little better than oil boilers ... but wood gasifiers and wood generator would be so much better

alas the problem is not only technical, it is regelementaire with the difficulty of selling electricity to the network ... one is stuck between too complicated condition to obtain a subsidized sale price ... or a sale price of base too weak to encourage the construction of small cogeneration machines, and administrative costs which kill the profitability of small machines

cogeneration with wood is however a good solution: gasification pollutes much less than the simple combustion of wood ... it produces electricity when you need heat, so when everyone needs electricity
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Bardal
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by Bardal » 04/04/18, 19:43

But, I do not see very well how one could make electricity with wood without producing heat beforehand ... In, it is necessary to make heat by incinerating wood, and divert part of it to produce l 'electricity; I do not understand too well where the advantage lies ... But, why not ...

In fact, because of its relative scarcity, wood is doomed to hold a minority (but important) place in energies, whatever the options chosen for the future; the flow is as limited as the fossil fuel stocks can be limited; it is already the first fossil fuel in France, and it is not certain that we will go much further in absolute value ... Quite the opposite of mass production which is sorely lacking in renewable energies. as much to use it in the most relevant way possible ...
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by dede2002 » 08/04/18, 16:33

moinsdewatt wrote:Here ? We exported wood chips to ..... Denmark!
River transport by barge to Antwerp, then by sea to Denmark



Export of forest chips by water to Denmark by ONF Energie

FranceFrédéric DOUARD March 1, 2018

At the start of 2018, an opportunity to export wood energy presented itself to the National Office of Forests and its ONF Energie subsidiary in the Grand Est region. Indeed, a major Danish Biomass plant was actively looking for wood energy to make up for the supply deficit of Scandinavian suppliers during this winter period. On the other hand, as the regional wood energy market does not offer sufficient outlets, a large stock of roadside wood had accumulated in public forests since 2016. This represents nearly 18 tonnes of wood energy which were mobilized towards this outlet during the months of January and February in the Grand-Est region.



.....................


https://www.bioenergie-promotion.fr/550 ... f-energie/


Interestingly, Denmark also builds biomass factories by relying on other people's forests ...

Out of curiosity, I looked at figures here: http://www.fao.org/faostat/fr/#data/FT

You can download the tables, I added the unit price.

comm pla fr.JPG
comm plaqu fr.JPG (49.25 KB) Consulted 4144 times


comm plate ca.JPG
comm plaqu ca.JPG (52.16 KB) Consulted 4144 times


The figures confirm what Ahmed wrote above, the goal is to raise money and recover what overflows ...

We note (on these two examples) that the export price is higher than the import price, and that the wafers are cheaper in Canada :P
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by ENERC » 08/04/18, 17:19

burning wood to make both electricity and heat is much better

Technically: yes.
The problem is that it links heating and electricity production.

It's like in Le Havre: to save the coal-fired power station, we propose to do district heating (we = a person highly placed in politics, you see?). Yes, it allows the coal-fired power plant to run during the entire heating period. it locks renewables for 30 years.

Making electricity with wood is a big mistake. Priority should be given to construction in order to avoid CO2 emissions due to cement.

And when you have already insulated your home, take advantage of its warmth in an insert of course. : Cheesy: Small pleasant pleasure.
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by sicetaitsimple » 08/04/18, 17:45

ENERC wrote:Making electricity with wood is a big mistake.


Of course, except in a few very specific cases (sawmills, paper mills, etc.) where wood waste is generated throughout the year, waste that must be recovered in continuous flow. For the rest (apart from lumber), it is heating that should be favored.
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by chatelot16 » 10/04/18, 13:10

wood cannot be molded like metal or plastic ... so when you saw wood to make furniture or frames you have a lot more than half of the wood that ends up falling, chips or sawdust ... so perfect for energy

and when we exploit the forest, there is also a lot of loss that could be exploited

and when the communes prune the trees at the edge of the road the fashion is to crush the branches to reduce the transport costs to evacuate large volumes ... and in certain communes around my home it leaves the piles of crushed wood on the edge roads ... more fuel is lost ... just because there is not enough reliable quality ground wood consumed ... commercial woodchip boilers are too difficult on the quality of grinding, it gets stuck if there is anything
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by chatelot16 » 10/04/18, 13:13

sicetaitsimple wrote:
ENERC wrote:Making electricity with wood is a big mistake.


Of course, except in a few very specific cases (sawmills, paper mills, etc.) where wood waste is generated throughout the year, waste that must be recovered in continuous flow. For the rest (apart from lumber), it is heating that should be favored.



why destroy waste wood in continuous flow? wood is easy to store! so you should only burn it when you need energy, thermal or electrical

and that's good the period of big consumption of electricity and heat are about the same!
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by chatelot16 » 10/04/18, 13:21

ENERC wrote:Making electricity with wood is a big mistake. Priority should be given to construction in order to avoid CO2 emissions due to cement.

one does not prevent the other: when wood is used for construction, it has a limited lifespan, and at the end of the life of furniture or wooden constructions it can also be used as fuel

gasification has a big advantage over simple combustion: it destroys questionable chemicals very well ... we can gasify any treated wood without pollution ... we can even pass the worst plastics like pvc without doing dioxin: quite simply because the gas leaving the gasifier is easier to purify than the smoke leaving a boiler ... and that the gas leaving the gasifier burns a second time in the internal combustion engine, which makes a 2nd destruction

gasification has a big advantage: it has a good yield in medium enough size, some hundred kW ... no need for a large installation in MW to be profitable like steam power plants and turbines
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Re: The future will pass you it with biomass?




by Remundo » 10/04/18, 14:36

chatelot16 wrote:wood cannot be molded like metal or plastic ... so when you saw wood to make furniture or frames you have a lot more than half of the wood that ends up falling, chips or sawdust ... so perfect for energy

it is true, but it is debatable, because now, "agglomerated" products have developed a lot.

For example OSB tiles are aggregations of chips
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