The electric automobile to compensate for electric peaks

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Alain G
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The electric automobile to compensate for electric peaks




by Alain G » 18/07/13, 18:33

Still not carried out, but in the planning stage with Chrysler and the Electric Caravan.

We have been talking about it for a long time without seeing a realistic project (or I missed it).


Can electric cars reduce peaking?
Posted on July 18th, 2013 • by David Zatz

One of the less-understood parts of electrical utilities is the problem of “peaking,” which comes in different forms. Under times of high demand, such as a run of very hot days, power plants may need to call upon reserve generators to satisfy demand. This is an expensive practice, partly because “peaking plants” held in reserve are normally older, less efficient, and used only a few times a year, but must be manned and maintained at all times. Buying power from other utilities can be even more expensive.

This is one reason why some utilities have invested in solar power (which works best in precisely the conditions where peaking is usually needed) and supported electric cars (which they figured would be charged at night, when power demand is usually low).

One way to avoid peaking is to have reserves. Detroit's NextEnergy nonprofit energy technology group and Chrysler have partnered to see if electric cars could act as a reserve for utilities. One vehicle cannot make a difference, but thousands might. They are working on a pilot project using four electric minivans, whose charging module can simulate any electric grid in the world.

If enough EVs were linked together and their combined surplus power was sold to utilities, they could offset demand surges. Tapping this reservoir would cut costs for utility companies, while putting money into the pockets of EV owners.

A mini-grid composed of EVs would enable “peak-shaving,” where EV owners could draw from their own power reserves during those hours when demand (and the price) for electricity is highest.

EVs could also help with solar power fluctuations, a process known as “generation-firming.”

The two-year Chrysler-NextEnergy partnership launched in 2011 and has been gathering data from four Chrysler Town & Country minivans equipped with all-electric powertrains. Each is powered by a 24kwH battery modified to accommodate bidirectional charging. Engineers are investigating how EVs with reverse power-flow might affect grids known as Independent System Operators (ISO).

An ISO buys, sells, and transmits electricity. Project engineers are collecting real-time pricing data from ISOs and weighing them against projected battery performance to help define revenue expectations.

Preliminary results show particular promise for ISOs that utilize solar and wind energy. Final results will be compiled later this year

The project was funded with $ 1 million from the Michigan Economic Development Corporation (MEDC) and $ 400,000 from NextEnergy. Chrysler Group is supplying the minivans and in-kind engineering support. The company's first production electric minivans were the 1993 TEVans, with between 56 and 80 made; some appear to still be on the road today. A second run of electric minivans were made in 1997, but these were leased rather than sold.


Will have to see the result on the wear of the batteries and the price of the kilowatt paid for this project, otherwise we will have to compensate the good samaritan who will do it for the cause.
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by I Citro » 18/07/13, 19:43

The principle of V2G and G2V that I have already discussed goes much further than simply erasing consumption peaks.

All this is an integral part of Smart Grids or the 2.0 network

Electric vehicles, renewable energies and interconnected "smart" networks form the structure.
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by chatelot16 » 18/07/13, 19:49

It deserves to translate into French, but I do not think it is a good idea to increase the wear of the vehicle batteries to participate in the regulation of the network.

it is better to do it with heavier and cheaper fixed batteries

and above all, the electricity merchants must pay for this service, with a variable electricity price

with a sufficient price variation each can recharge a battery when it is cheap to consume when it is more expensive, if the price difference is greater than the loss of the batteries
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by Ahmed » 18/07/13, 21:30

It is interesting to note that consumption peaks are linked to the hottest periods in the North American context, while it is the reverse in France; this at least shows that there is room for maneuver since it is not technical rigidities that are at stake, but the choice of equipment (therefore, a politico-commercial factor).
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by Did67 » 18/07/13, 21:44

It is an idea !

But it seems to me that there are simpler ones:

a) manage the spreading of different consumption (a freezer today has an autonomy of 48 h; we can therefore recharge the cold once per 24 h; in a low consumption preference; same as washing machines / washing machines dishes, which can very often differ - at least for those who do not live in an apartment; there, the noise of the spin can be annoying even if huge progress has been made ...

However, the trend goes in the other direction: elimination of the "blue" tariff (HP / HC). If I followed correctly, those who have it keep it but there are no more new subscribers?

And anyway, it is overtaxed (I mean, a very expensive subscription) which makes it unattractive if you are not very heavy consumer. However, if in all the families consuming 3 kWh per year, we differed say 000, it would damn smooth peaks and troughs!

b) I have mentioned elsewhere the missed opportunity to postpone the consumption of biomethane, by consuming two or three times as much at peaks, on condition of giving a very small premium to compensate for the over-investment: 2 or 3 groups of cogé to acquire in one go / "hat" larger on the digesters to store gas for 12 or 18 hours ...

Biomethane is inherently storable without great costs.

Does not interest anyone !!!

c) Knowing that at certain times, electricity is not worth much on the spot markets, the beginning of the beginning would be a purchase and sale pricing taking into account the need curve: return to the end user the fall in the price in the dips of consumption and he will "invent" 36 ways of centering his consumption on these dips; give back to producers part of the additional cost during peaks and they will scramble to invent 36 ways to inject at the high price (why not from their car having served as a "buffer"; well, it must still be recharged for the next morning ; must also "secure" the injection to not electrocute anyone; there are some small "technical" annoyances which will have their cost).
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by chatelot16 » 18/07/13, 22:41

Of course, storing electricity in batteries is only the 2nd step!

the first is to control the consumption which can be different from a few hours like the fridge freezer heating washing machine ... and even more in the industry

we spend money with the new linky meter which is expensive and useless and we do nothing to optimize consumption according to production
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by Alain G » 19/07/13, 00:35

Did67 wrote:It is an idea !

But it seems to me that there are simpler ones:

a) manage the spreading of different consumption (a freezer today has an autonomy of 48 h; we can therefore recharge the cold once per 24 h; in a low consumption preference; same as washing machines / washing machines dishes, which can very often differ - at least for those who do not live in an apartment; there, the noise of the spin can be annoying even if huge progress has been made ...

However, the trend goes in the other direction: elimination of the "blue" tariff (HP / HC). If I followed correctly, those who have it keep it but there are no more new subscribers?

And anyway, it is overtaxed (I mean, a very expensive subscription) which makes it unattractive if you are not very heavy consumer. However, if in all the families consuming 3 kWh per year, we differed say 000, it would damn smooth peaks and troughs!

b) I have mentioned elsewhere the missed opportunity to postpone the consumption of biomethane, by consuming two or three times as much at peaks, on condition of giving a very small premium to compensate for the over-investment: 2 or 3 groups of cogé to acquire in one go / "hat" larger on the digesters to store gas for 12 or 18 hours ...

Biomethane is inherently storable without great costs.

Does not interest anyone !!!

c) Knowing that at certain times, electricity is not worth much on the spot markets, the beginning of the beginning would be a purchase and sale pricing taking into account the need curve: return to the end user the fall in the price in the dips of consumption and he will "invent" 36 ways of centering his consumption on these dips; give back to producers part of the additional cost during peaks and they will scramble to invent 36 ways to inject at the high price (why not from their car having served as a "buffer"; well, it must still be recharged for the next morning ; must also "secure" the injection to not electrocute anyone; there are some small "technical" annoyances which will have their cost).


Hi Did!


I agree with you in terms of making our residential equipment managed by the electrical network with a subsistence discount on low demand and shutdown on high demand, moreover I have often mentioned this solution in the past.

For the support of peaks with the electric car, there is good and bad, firstly if paired with solar panels I see no problem but on the network it always depends on the price paid by the supplier and the discount on the invoice which must imperatively amortize the batteries if not I see no advantage but let the things be placed to see what solutions they will find.


Chatelot Hi!

The blomb battery is good but once again it must be amortized and I fear that nobody wants to make a room only to house these batteries only to help the electric providers.
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by Did67 » 19/07/13, 16:01

Alain G wrote:For the support of peaks with the electric car, there is good and bad, firstly if paired with solar panels I see no problem but on the network it always depends on the price paid by the supplier and the discount on the invoice which must imperatively amortize the batteries if not I see no advantage but let the things be placed to see what solutions they will find.



For now, at least with us, the buy-back price for photovoltaic production is completely artificial because it is subsidized and guaranteed.

From where the economic absurdity which made that at the beginning of June, I believe, the sale price of electricity on the smrahcés spots was negative whereas all the PV panels of France and Germania debit kWh subsidized sometimes enormously (until 'at more than 60 cents per kWh, then resold at a negative price !!!!). There was also wind these days, all over Europe, the French nuclear power stations at bottom and the dams over the lot, following the heavy rains, which turbinated thoroughly to not flood the plains ...

So that poses some problems to find an economic model for the storage which is not yet a tumor on a cancer!

NB: I also expressed myself on the interest of a sliding and declining subsidy system for renewable energy, pending cost / price convergence. The only alternative to nuclear, in my opinion ...

I therefore remain in favor of these rates, even if I point out a few disadvantages above.

Recognize that this system has flaws is just trying to be objective. I have not yet encountered a perfect thing on this earth.

And if you are nice, I will tell you the story of the guy who left his village to find the perfect woman! [but should I then self-moderate for HS ???? This is a serious question!]
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by chatelot16 » 19/07/13, 16:09

there is a unique topic of humor! put your story of a perfect woman there ... she may already be there but nobody will reread the 716 page to check!
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by moinsdewatt » 20/07/13, 13:34

chatelot16 wrote:...
we spend money with the new linky meter which is expensive and useless and we do nothing to optimize consumption according to production


The Linky meter is useless for the individual in whom it is installed.

The Linky meter is only used by ERDF to make the remote reading and better manage the electrical network.
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