Advice heating Pros: valid or not?

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dodo
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Advice heating Pros: valid or not?




by dodo » 21/08/10, 10:44

Hello,


we are in the process of making quotes (windows, attic insulation, exterior insulation, and heating, in order to target the work that we will undertake.

we just met a heating engineer, who tells us that our 30 year old electric heaters have lost their efficiency : Mrgreen: and he advises us on a geothermal heat pump via the cooling water table.

according to him our house would go from a label F in electrical to D.
Last edited by dodo the 22 / 08 / 10, 10: 28, 1 edited once.
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Forhorse
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by Forhorse » 21/08/10, 11:14

The efficiency of an electrical resistance is always 100%, no more, no less ... and whatever its age.
Change of heating engineer (he may not be wrong on the heat pumps, but that he makes this kind of statement shows his incompetence)
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oiseautempete
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by oiseautempete » 21/08/10, 13:07

There is electric radiator and electric radiator, you do not specify the type ...
If it is conventional convectors, they are to be eliminated because if the efficiency of the resistance is not in question, the efficiency of the heating is poor (the ceiling is heated), radiant heaters are much better (homogeneous heating by infrared radiation, and not by convection), consume ~ 15-20% less at room temperature at half identical height ... a heat pump is 10x the price of radiant heaters ... but the air water cap has in general a correct output (air air to avoid)
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by dedeleco » 21/08/10, 17:30

we just met a heating engineer, who tells us that our 30 year old electric heaters have lost their efficiency : Mrgreen: and he advises us on a geothermal heat pump via the cooling water table.

It's not just incompetence, this is pure scam !!
which seems very common !!!!
: Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:


If you do not sleep with the window open as a storm bird (a little special) and are satisfied with your radiators, keep them !!!
It is better that they have thermostats so as not to overheat, and to balance.
Take the cheapest with thermostats, or even blowing noisy (at 15 €), which I like as a backup and which do not send hot air to the ceiling because they are thermostatically controlled at 20 ° C and sent horizontally and not to the ceiling !!.

For this price, take a simple additional solar heating, and a wood heating with automatic boiler, burning all wood in particular the free vegetable waste abandoned everywhere in France leaving a crusher.

Insulate better, you will earn more, with 3000 €, and elbow oil, you can insulate outside, see on econology.

The water table must have a good renewal, otherwise you will cool it to T lower than to outside T, therefore nonsense.


Finally, what is the real guaranteed lifetime of your heat pump?

Models change every 3 years, refrigerator fluids standardized every 5 years, so your model needs to be changed well before 10 years at the slightest serious breakdown, such as refilling refrigerant that has become banned and cannot be found (my personal case !!) !!

So long-term depreciation with savings is in practice impossible !!!
Standards and companies shamelessly rip off !!

An architect made me install an air air heat pump from the most reliable manufacturer (in Japan) in the Var for the winter!
3 years after the lightning strike on the house set fire to my heat pump which with its long copper pipes served as a lightning rod!
Repair almost impossible because the model is no longer done and luckily we find a last one not yet sold !!!
To make it work I had to solve the problem myself because the installer couldn't do it !! But he had left to invoice me for all his trips due to his incapacity, 1000 € saved with trips of 80Km each time !!
But he warned me 3 years after installation! no more question of having a breakdown, because everything will have to be changed and repaid as for a new heat pump 3 years after installation !!!

This week I received a letter from the installer, warning me that the fluid of the time (2002) became prohibited and that therefore he recommends that I change my heat pump completely preventively, because he will not be able to recharge the fluid that has now become impossible to find because it is prohibited, more than € 15000 in the trash (2 floors to heat), with the small commercial flower of recovery for 300 € !!

I will try to store refill fluid before it becomes impossible to find because prohibited, but fight in sight !!

You are certain that current fluids will be banned in the future, a real income for manufacturers !!

It's like pesticides, old banned for new ones to be banned in the future, until we realize that they are also dangerous!


As a result, I would never issue a PAC, a real repetitive scam machine.

Fortunately I have wood heating, insert, almost free with all the plants of pruning trees and hedges by me and my neighbors who throw them !!

Finally, when you buy a modern sophisticated device with electronics you have to buy it in double or triple to have all the necessary spare parts which will be gone in 3 to 5 years !!!!
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oiseautempete
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by oiseautempete » 21/08/10, 18:19

dedeleco wrote:
If you do not sleep with the window open as a storm bird (a little special) and are satisfied with your radiators, keep them !!!


stop messing around with this please: with the window open the radiator is OFF !!! : Evil: (and if it's a joke it doesn't amuse me anymore ...)
As for the fan heaters: I had one in the bathroom, fired because of the noise for a radiating 2000w which is impeccable.
The blowers are dust stirrers first, the dust burns on the apparent resistances, incandescent at full speed and it stinks and most are noisy = avoid!
On a radiating element, the resistance is a sheet metal or ceramic plate which does not heat at high temperatures so no burnt dust ...
And here you have the prices of good quality radiators (mine, 20 years old, are the ancestors of the Sauter "jewel" model):
http://www.camif.fr/boutique-en-ligne/m ... fixes.html
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by dedeleco » 22/08/10, 02:58

oiseautempete writes:
As for the fan heaters: I had one in the bathroom, fired because of the noise for a radiating 2000w which is impeccable.
The blowers are first-class dust collectors, the dust burns on the apparent resistances, incandescent at full speed and it stinks and most are noisy = to avoid!
On a radiating element, the resistance is a sheet metal or ceramic plate which does not heat at high temperatures so no burnt dust ...
And here you have the prices of good quality radiators (mine, 20 years old, are the ancestors of the Sauter "jewel" model):


We don't all have the same tastes and preferences !!
[bLles blowers, even at 15 to 20 €, [/ b] are not dust stirring, and since the air cools the resistance, with thermostat the resistance is never incandescent and the noise is not greater than that of an air heat pump with its fan, sometimes noisier in some hotels, where it is badly mounted !! !!
Given the thermostat at 20 ° C, the air coming out is less hot than for a radiant panel. (and the resistance well cooled by this air, barely more at 40 ° C, less than the radiant panel !!).
Oiseautempete must have an archaic blower badly designed or deteriorated !!
The radiant panel, very expensive on the camif site indicated by storm bird, more than 760 € at 2KW (quasi-scam therefore to avoid : http://www.camif.fr/exec2/liste.asp?Gra ... n=__0005__), very bulky (over 1,1m wide), as its name suggests, to radiate, needs to be heated quite strongly, more than 40 ° C, otherwise it does not radiate infrared, so pleasant for bird-watching !!
The dust fallen on this warmer radiant decomposes as well and stinks as much, or even longer, because no air circulates and on the blower the well cooled resistance, is less hot.
The modern and correct blower sends air at room temperature, set by the thermostat, just like an air heat pump which blows air at room temperature.
The radiant sends its infrared rays on the elements of the room, the skin of the inhabitants, furniture, heats this furniture, which heats the air in the room which rises to the ceiling !!
Blowing it with its air at room temperature at good speed mixes it much more intimately with that of the room so that with a uniform temperature, it does not rise to the ceiling !!

We don't all have the same tastes, I don't sleep with the window open and my wife is less tolerant if I wanted to, to spend her life under a duvet next to it, not to mention that the poor keep in memory of each mosquito bite, beautiful red spots for more than a month, which means closing the window, even in winter, because we saw mosquitoes at Christmas !!
But in the bathroom a fan or radiant radiator, we are perfectly useless, because hot water with its steam heats immediately !!

Finally to spend the number of parts multiplied by 760 €, it is better to spend it on an additional solar heating or a good wood heating !!!!

I am flabbergasted by the number of scams that sellers of heating manage to swallow !!

I do not digest the blow of obliging to redeem my PAC after less than 8 years, because it is no longer done and is irreparable, if it breaks down !!
The heating engineers have a perpetual annuity insured as well !!
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oiseautempete
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by oiseautempete » 22/08/10, 08:51

dedeleco wrote:
We don't all have the same tastes and preferences !!
[bLles blowers, even at 15 to 20 €, [/ b] are not dust stirring, and since the air cools the resistance, with thermostat the resistance is never incandescent and the noise is not greater than that of an air heat pump with its fan, sometimes noisier in some hotels, where it is badly mounted !! !!
Given the thermostat at 20 ° C, the air coming out is less hot than for a radiant panel. (and the resistance well cooled by this air, barely more at 40 ° C, less than the radiant panel !!).
Oiseautempete must have an archaic blower badly designed or deteriorated !!
The radiant panel, very expensive on the camif site indicated by storm bird, more than 760 € at 2KW (quasi-scam therefore to avoid : http://www.camif.fr/exec2/liste.asp?Gra ... n=__0005__), very bulky (over 1,1m wide), as its name suggests, to radiate, needs to be heated quite strongly, more than 40 ° C, otherwise it does not radiate infrared, so pleasant for bird-watching !!
The dust fallen on this warmer radiant decomposes as well and stinks as much, or even longer, because no air circulates and on the blower the well cooled resistance, is less hot.


We don't all have the same tastes, I don't sleep with the window open and my wife is less tolerant if I wanted to, to spend her life under a duvet next to it, not to mention that the poor keep in memory of each mosquito bite, beautiful red spots for more than a month, which means closing the window, even in winter, because we saw mosquitoes at Christmas !!



I did not know, that in addition to having a bad faith to peel off the wallpaper from the walls, you did not know how to read, because indeed the radiant Bijou of 2kw costs 289 € and not 760 ... expensive are those in ceramic, in particular those which are made to be installed in the corners of rooms (personal, instead of spending a fortune for that, I installed a flat vertical panel on a support manufacture home without spending a round of more!) ... but I can tell you that ceramic panels are useless luxury ...
I equipped my whole apartment with radians for less than 10000Francs 20 years ago or 1 month of my salary as a mechanic at the time ... a "fortune" as you say : Lol:
The radiant plate heats to ~ 80 ° (on the surface of the radiator it never exceeds 50 °, the resistance of a blower is much more than that ... the proof is that dust burns on the resistance of the blowing and never on the radiant because obviously you have never seen a real radiant and you allow yourself to judge negatively what you do not know ... blowers I saw several models (ours was brand new) and I have not seen any silent ... when in an air conditioning or other heat pump, no noisy stuff at home ... the VMC is already good enough air breaths level ...
When to say that it is not a dust stir (...) when you suck and spit air, the dust will necessarily with, moreover, I advise you to open the case of your computer to convince you (if you have a classic tower) ...
When mosquitoes at Christmas (...), given the climate of the Vosges, mosquitoes are already very few in summer, despite a nearby pond, and in winter never see them ...
My wife is from the high Vosges, raised in the old way like myself and not a comforter who moans for nothing ... At our parents and grand parents, in winter, even by -20 there has never been heating in the rooms and no one has ever died of cold and extremely rare diseases ...
The only time we slept with heating, it was during a winter raid in Quebec: the night temperature dropped to -44 ° C and boots forgotten in a corner away from the stove (which had to recharge 1 or 2x overnight) welded to the ground by frost : Lol:
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dodo
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advice from the pros




by dodo » 22/08/10, 10:27

Hello,

I expected this reaction regarding the CAP a bit.
I still asked him to make me an offer with a log boiler.

Regarding the solar he says that he go on an auxiliary heater.

for now I go around the trades to see the cost of each work to see what is feasible.



the heating engineer recommends heating and no ITE because of the interior insulation,

the carpenter recommends changing the window before doing the ITE.

the person who came to make the measurements for the ITE says that you can do an ITE without having to change the windows and that you can insulate in 12cm of polystirene with interior insulation.

Regarding electric radiators I always heard that it was useless to change an electric radiator by another in terms of energy saving.
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by dedeleco » 22/08/10, 16:53

You see the contradictions between the different specialists, who mainly seek to have the most expensive order, even if it is absurd.

For radiators, it is not just "heard" but a scientific fact proven by an immense number of experiments and science would collapse if it was so little that it was false !!!!!
A calorimeter (your insulated house with a uniform T inside) is heated in the same way whatever the way of heating at equal power !!!

My reaction is not limited to the CAP, but to many recent devices with microprocessors often and changing standards like weather vanes, taking advantage of environmentalists, to sell a max with perverse effects !!
So I'm furious at having to pay full price for a new heat pump if I want to be heated !! The EDF economy was very much lower than the price of the CAP over 8 years !!!
So if there is a breakdown, no more heat pump and wood heating and electric fan blower at € 10 at start-up, for a short time in winter in the Var !!
In addition electricity pushes in France to multiply the nuclear power stations with the risk of a new Chernobyl, sooner or later, since the men are not infallible perpetually !!

Same, we were pushed with the bonus penalty, towards new cars in the dissel (less CO2!) But the pollution by fine particles of diesel gives full of asthmatics (particles not filtered by the particle filter which stops only the big ones!) and 60% more heating by absorbing sunlight (black particles, black smoke!), scientific fact published and forgotten by focusing on CO2 alone !!!
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 144225.htm
Likewise, bio fuels, alcohol, which suppress food and tropical forests for palm oil (dramatic).

The heat pump is going to be expensive for an entire house with two floors and personally I would drop it (without any real guarantee over 20 years given the complexity and the weathervane standards) to put this good price in a fully automatic boiler burning all available wood, logs, shredded, shreds normally thrown and gratis, granules, even quite wet, wonder built by German, Austrian, and even in France, which is worth despite the price, because of long life, and as automatic as gas !!!!
Farmers use it with their unnecessary waste for free heating!
With wood waste gratis and discarded usually, with a solar supplement for fall and spring, the economy is important and requires less costly efforts in insulation.
In the Var, when I see the amount of wood (trees, hedge trimming, very little grass, well dried in the strong sun) thrown by my neighbors at the recycling center that burns them for nothing, and the same in the Paris region (compost), we are sure of a completely free heating !!

The ITE thickens the walls, strongly, (12cm external insufficient and not very coherent, because the price, it is the labor which is rather independent of the thickness, and therefore there is interest in the maximum of thickness). There is 3000 € of material (straw, and lime, see on econology) and the rest is elbow grease, which pushes to make oneself, especially since the premium relates only to the material !!
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post175526.html#175526
and pages after:
http://www.approchepaille.fr/
http://documents.approchepaille.fr/pdf/ ... e-greb.pdf
http://documents.approchepaille.fr/pdf/ ... u-greb.pdf

In any case, to remove the thermal bridges around the edges of the windows that appear (the old wall remains on the outside behind the ITE), you have to move or change the windows to the outside, otherwise it is absurd. to keep these thermal bridges, which have become important with the good new thermal insulation. !!

The carpenter tries to place his windows without worrying too much about the ITE !!
It is necessary to carry out both, ITE and windows together in a coherent way and in mutual agreement, if not, absurdities and insulation much lower than hopes !!
With a good ITE (50cm, straw) the heating engineer becomes almost useless, given the savings in heating !!
So he seeks to place the most powerful possible with the least insulation, otherwise he earns much less !!
Without elbow grease, the windows cost € 20000 and the ITE as much or even more at € 150 to € 200 per m2 of ITE !!

The choice is difficult with professionals who see only their interest and little that of the client!

You have to take common sense after analyzing and verifying the statements, being wary of judgments that are too quick !!
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Re: advice from the pros




by oiseautempete » 22/08/10, 17:23

dodo wrote:
Regarding electric radiators I always heard that it was useless to change an electric radiator by another in terms of energy saving.

Between "heard" and reality there is a difference ...
An electric radiator which heats homogeneously (~ 3 ° difference between floor and ceiling) consumes significantly less than a simple convector which heats the ceiling above all (10 ° difference between floor and ceiling, that's why I have fired mine!), because not to have frozen feet (= discomfort) with convectors, you have to heat a lot more, so it eats more = CQFD
On the other hand, switching from radiant, even low-end, to other radiant but very high-end design 10x more expensive, does not actually lead to any energy savings ... Just compare what is comparable. .
Electric radiators can be a completely valid heating system if:
-the accommodation is well insulated
- ventilation is well controlled
- we are not looking for tropical temperatures (20 ° C is ok)
- we manage the heating correctly (economic mode regulating at ~ 16 ° in case of absence), the advantage of radiant heaters is that the room rises quickly in t ° (in the bathroom for example I set 2x more powerful than what was calculated and in ~ 10 minutes we go from 16 to 22 ° ...)
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