Advice heating Pros: valid or not?

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dodo
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by dodo » 07/09/10, 11:15

dedeleco wrote:Otherwise, the rather absurd modern houses are to be rebuilt to remove all heating !!

I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

there it was crawling so very difficult to see but roof space have seen that there is indeed 10 cm of lv.

but this winter I’m going to hunt in the draft.

anyway I think I opted for insulation in stages either a type of work per year and see improvements in comfort as and when either:

is :

1 / lost roof space

2 / if necessary window with cracks in the wood.

3 / the ITE is the creepers must be of the same size of price, so can be one or the other.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 07/09/10, 16:01

dedeleco wrote:

Otherwise, the rather absurd modern houses are to be rebuilt to remove all heating !!

I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

answer: read for example thoroughly:
http://www.fiabitat.com/comparatif-mais ... nnelle.php

We can make houses that do not need heating, because with low losses and recovering the heat of summer for winter !!
see references in:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post176835.html#176835



For 60 years, it is therefore the quality of the houses that has suffered in the face of societal choices greedy in finance. The constructions which were carried out at the end of the second world war were, of all those which we built in our history, the most ineffective of all. A truly traditional (peasant) house that was not renovated had performances in accordance with RT 2000 standards (note: but these houses were often renovated despite common sense after the 60s which degrades their qualities and makes them unsanitary). ....
The economic system is only governed by greed, it is therefore logical that without standards or laws prohibiting the scam, it is possible if it is more profitable. We therefore vote on rules that everyone must then respect .......
This is why it sometimes happens that the standard imposes solutions which are not the best for the citizen. This is also why the standard changes regularly, depending on the power struggles that generate it. It can also change completely: let's not take the example of asbestos which was compulsory for certain uses and which was then strictly prohibited for the same uses. This type of reversal is neither rare nor abnormal ......
We can have the technological level of the most industrialized countries, and at the same time be literally underdeveloped in our habits of construction of individual houses (France is moreover not an isolated case: the Americans know very well do it too!) ...


Finally I repeat myself, first (above all and what is easily visible as roof space), take or buy a ladder to walk on the roof, what I do at home, which saved me a lot of setbacks, like a broken or cracked, invisible tile, which wets and destroys the insulation, quickly repair my roof with a 1m2 hole by micro-tornado, discover the wool of glass to change in certain places, shredded by the wind and rats or mice, etc.
This investment of a ladder at home, saves me a lot of interventions from professionals much more expensive, than this ladder, even to simply lift the tiles and find the insulation faults, which they make fun of, because their goal is to sell as expensive as possible ..
Okay with you avoid excessive spending but look under these tiles for large insulation flaws that no one has been looking for, glass wool with holes, forgotten, displaced or shredded by the wind, glass wool peeled from the walls serving no purpose because the cold air circulates between it and the wall (fundamental to check when walking on the roof and the attic).
Put a wood heating not too expensive, with the free wood thrown elsewhere (insert with circulator) and your bill will decrease !!

The crawlers are first to check as I tell you, by lifting tiles yourself, to know their real state, because can be very little work in certain critical places will restore the insulation.
Work should not be undertaken without being certain of the result for the insulation.
I am not convinced to isolate more what is already isolated as roof space.
Heating with free wood, even as a backup, will save much more than other expensive solutions especially good for enriching professionals.

The proposed ITE is not thick enough, so in my opinion insufficient gain, 40cm of straw or other, yes, but 12cm, with the problem of the windows, seems expensive to me, typical of old HLM without any thermal insulation, where one puts that, passing from 0 to 12cm of insulation, for not too expensive. .
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dodo
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by dodo » 08/09/10, 09:17

Regarding the carpenter's proposal concerning the crawlers, it is in a way an insulation of the roof from the outside since it uses 28 cm of wadding to have an R of 7.

you say that 12 cm in ITE it is useless? Why ?
all the craftsmen that I met for an ITE all proposed to me that polystyrene is white or speckled white and gray, then the straw is not even worth thinking about.

on the other hand, it contradicts itself at the level of the return of the insulation on the windows, some recommends a wider conflagration and the other affixes the insulation on the slide of the shutter.
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 08/09/10, 13:59

polystyrene is better insulator than glass wool: so 12 cm of polystyrene is comparable to 20 cm of glass wool: some can dream better, but it's already not bad

you have to do with your means, it costs nothing to advise 20cm of polystyrene but who pays?
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 08/09/10, 17:05

polystyrene is better insulator than glass wool: therefore 12 cm of polystyrene is comparable to 20 cm of glass wool: some can dream better, but it's already not bad

12 = 20 does not correspond to what is in the tables and written by the manufacturers:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolant_thermique
Expanded polystyrene is equivalent to glass wool !!
9 to 12 cm for around 0,33 W / m2 °.
The insulation is not the support, but the air immobilized and trapped in it, so the thermal conductivity is comparable !!

In practice there is matter for perpetual discussion according to moods!!
Indeed the polystyrene disintegrates and is reduced to powder, at a variable speed with its quality and the climatic conditions (UV and cold) and the glass wool sags with time especially in bulk and vertically.
Also we have people furious to discover their polystyrene reduced to the state of powder and others that the glass wool has become collapsed in large beads and even worse if wet by leakage or condensation !!
The less support it has for this immobilized air, the better the insulation (in the case of aerogels), but the mechanical solidity becomes negligible over time (in the case of aerogels) !!
If cold air can circulate between the insulation and the wall to be insulated, then the insulation is almost zero !! This case is easy with not careful installation, the polystyrene which peels off, the glass wool which spreads, with gusts of wind, or rats or mice which dig holes for housing.
The quality of the insulation is essential, but then its density increases and its thermal conductivity increases !!
The quality of the installation is crucial also given the easy errors.

Finally spending a lot to insulate outside in 12cm seems absurd, because what makes the price is essentially the work of laying the supports and plaster and very little the thickness of insulation !!
We can divide by 4 the heat losses instead of dividing by 2 on paper, which can if errors, be very disappointing in reality, 10 to 30% real and € 30000 amortized in 100 years !!
Before you must have detected and removed all your hidden leaks, otherwise this expenditure of € 30000 will be useless, always with a colander house, except to enrich the con artist, who makes fun completely if his work is useless !!
Since this is very new for companies, I am not convinced of the quality and the training of the staff to avoid errors, such as thermal bridges around non-displaced windows or drafts between the insulation and the poorly controlled wall.
Ask the company to see the houses thus isolated, more than 10 years ago, to find out the degree of satisfaction of their occupants 10 years later !!
I am sure that the current 12cm which looks good will become 30 to 40cm in a few years !!
The insulation (air) does not cost anything, but it is what is used to immobilize it which is expensive and the final plaster.
Straw costs almost nothing without this support!
If you do it yourself, you have it for 3000 € (see and look for examples on econology)
Are you sure that the plaster will hold on a wooden support over time?
As in the past, the thickness of thermal insulation was gradually increased: in the 1950s, concrete block or brick was enough !!
Then we went to the air gap of 1 to 2 cm at the end of the 1960s (the ultimate then !!!), then to 2cm of polystyrene in this air gap at the beginning of the 1970s (very expensive! ) then 5cm, early 1980, then 8cm, then 10cm (1990s to 2000), then now very expensive 12cm exterior with questionable installation, then 30 or 40cm exterior well installed late 2010 to early 2020 !!
The good of an era becomes bad later, endless !!
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by dodo » 17/09/10, 11:12

deleco>
I wonder if you are not right somewhere, because when I see the amounts to invest to slightly reduce the energy bill.

I have a craftsman whom I called to insulate my floor from my attic which offers me to insulate all my roofing with a vapor barrier and cotton wool for around 20 euros.

I do not see at all the interest of making a whole roof to reinforce the crawling part at the habitable level, the crawling represents only a weak part of the roof, as much to break the placo and to do it from the inside.



I have the impression that there are 2 schools those who think insulation at all costs and those who think insulation taking into account the return on investment.


what scares me is that in a few years we will have real estate at two speeds, the BBC standard and others which will necessarily have a consequence in terms of price in the case of a sale.
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by chatelot16 » 17/09/10, 11:48

I was wrong with polystyrene, I was thinking about polyurethane foam which is more effective

so if the polystyrene is not more effective then it is more expensive as well forget it

see rigid rock wool here:
http://forums.futura-sciences.com/habit ... soe-2.html
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by dedeleco » 17/09/10, 16:22

Polyurethane is made with harmful products, isocyanates, etc.,
which release gases over time, and by burning and falling are very dangerous in case of fire !!

Rock wool is dangerous, more than glass wool, irritating to the eyes, the lungs, in perpetuity, even if it is less indisputable than for asbestos.
It will end up being banned !!


For dodo, there are already lots of real estate at several speeds between 1950, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 as years of construction!
The good of an era becomes bad later, endless !!

and it will continue, and therefore even with a good insulation of 2012, the standards will change and make a new speed.

I think that it is necessary to change the insulation on the occasion of an essential renovation, dead roof, house too old, uncomfortable, but not only for insulation.

I see that people do not take much account of the insulation when buying, but more flashy, as for the emissions of M6 (Research house) !!


Burning free wood thrown away is more economical !!
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dodo
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by dodo » 21/09/10, 22:00

I am going to be surprised in surprise after having had a proposal for a heating installation with a log boiler at 32 euros, I had a proposal for 000 euros cheaper.

short suddenly I wanted to see how much I will cost to leave on a new fireplace, not given either since it must be counted in the 10 euros with air outlet on the ground floor and 000 on the first adjustable.

from what I understood in the fireplace what is expensive is not the fireplace but the decor.
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by dodo » 27/09/10, 22:10

here I just had a diagnosis of a company which is not really independent since it sells energy from where my reluctance on this oral diagnosis.
I was very surprised with this free dignostic.

finally I gave him my approximate budget, and he advised me to target priorities taking into account the return on investment and the comfort provided.


carpentry:

he advises me to change that some small windows or the wood has worked a little and is no longer waterproof (French windows and entry door which is veiled).

Since the windows are already double glazed the change of this one will not bring a significant comfort compared to the investment.

He advises me to isolate my stolen boxes


attic:

already insulated attic with 3 * 5cm, he advises me to fill where there are holes and invest rather in a wood stove or the economy will be more substantial and to offset insulation of the attic in a few years.

heater :

provide a stove and possibly a battery heater


he did feel a kind of air flow in the entry, according to him seeing that the cage of lighthouse gives on the entry that could be a call of hot air of the first.
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