gravity storage

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moinsdewatt
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by moinsdewatt » 10/03/15, 21:39

hud wrote: @ raymon, thanks for the interesting link
I am surprised by the lack of interest of the government and EDF-AREVA
for this multi-storey STEP project (ponçon - pond of Berre)
however, this STEP solution is ideal for "smoothing" electro-nuclear production and therefore does not vary too much the production of nuclear power plants (fatigue and cracks in the tanks as in Belgium)


Image
the Etang de Berre and the dam of Serres Poncon are far too distant to make the STEP in between.

The yield would be deplorable because of the friction of water in the pipes and the resulting pressure drop.
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by Gaston » 11/03/15, 12:25

izentrop wrote:"An ARES plant of 333 MW x 8 hours requires two stations (one at the top and one at the bottom), 3 rails of 12,8 km connecting them, and 70 shuttles made up of 4 wagons, shuttles each transferring 2 MWh."
If one tries to calculate the size of the stations: for a storage of 333x8 = 2664 MWh with 1000 m of difference in altitude, one needs a mass of 977 614 tons.

With a density of 3, it represents 325 871 m3
If we admit that each container is 2 meters high and containers are ideally stored, the surface of each station is 162 935m² or about 22 football fields ...

raymon wrote:It is easier to find a site for solid storage than liquid. It is enough to see the reactions of the local residents when one wants to build a dam.
What do residents think about the construction of two stations of almost 200 000 m² each :?:
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by skin » 11/03/15, 13:09

@ moinsdewatt, I advise you to read the complete link indicated by raymon
it is a solution with several small dams between the greenhouse and the pond of berre
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by izentrop » 11/03/15, 13:26

gaston wrote:What do residents think about the construction of two stations of about 200 000 m² each
In the desert, there are not many.

At the nose, if each mass is 3 m wide, the height must reach 6 to 7 m, you can divide your surface by 3;)

View differently 3 m wide x 15 m long x 70 shuttles x 4 wagons = 12600 m².
15 km² by counting a space between each block.
2 football fields;)

Checking the density:
3 x 15 x 6 = 270 m3
734 t by wagon / 270 = 2.7 .... in the nails :D

http://www.nwcouncil.org/media/4440767/ares.pdf
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by Gaston » 11/03/15, 14:54

izentrop wrote:
gaston wrote:What do residents think about the construction of two stations of about 200 000 m² each
In the desert, there are not many.
raymon compared to the area occupied by roadblocks, I "just" wanted to point out that that of stations would be far from negligible.
As for the mountainous deserts, we have few in France ...

izentrop wrote:At the nose, if each mass is 3 m wide, the height must reach 6 to 7 m, you can divide your surface by 3;)
I do not know if we can really climb so high on rails, but saw the images .... going to divide by 3, 66000 m².


izentrop wrote:View differently 3 m wide x 15 m long x 70 shuttles x 4 wagons = 12600 m².
Except that we have only 70 x 4 * 734 = 205 520 tons, which is about the 1 / 4 th of the mass required for a storage capacity of 2664 MWh.

In the diagram on page 5, we see a shuttle descending "empty".
The example given by Ares probably uses 70 shuttles of 4 wagons (or 70 wagons?), But 1400 "masses" which are loaded / unloaded from the wagons.
The storage area of ​​these masses is 1400 * 3 * 15 = 63000m²

We come back to a surface of the order of 65000 m² per station.


izentrop wrote:15 km² by counting a space between each block.
2 football fields;)
Attention, 15 km² = 15 000 000 m² and not 15 000 m² : Mrgreen:

izentrop wrote:Checking the density:
3 x 15 x 6 = 270 m3
734 t by wagon / 270 = 2.7 .... in the nails :D
Yes.


In the end, for a storage of 333x8 MWh, two stations of 65000 m² each are required.

In any case, we arrive at a density of 150 000 tonnes per occupied hectare of the same order of magnitude as a hydroelectric dam.
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by izentrop » 11/03/15, 15:37

We will need a representative of ARES to decide between us : Cheesy:

We are talking about 70 4 shuttles loads x 2 Mwh = 560 mwh

It is incompatible: either there are more cars than announced, or the power is the maximum power that can be provided for the ascent.
The average power on 8 hours would be 560 / 8 / 0.78 = 89,75 Mw

Otherwise 333 x 8 / 2Mwh per load x 15 mx 3 m = 60 km²
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by Gaston » 11/03/15, 16:06

izentrop wrote:Otherwise 333 x 8 / 2Mwh per load x 15 mx 3 m = 60 km²
We agree, except on the km ².

1 km² is not 1000 m² but 1 000 000 m² : Mrgreen:
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by izentrop » 11/03/15, 20:26

Ok for the km², the school is far behind :?

I do not understand why 70 shuttles since the charges are removed from the wagon but hey it's two stations of 65000 m² by counting the spaces between charges.

Solar panels can be housed on the roofs of railway stations. This is an advantage over hydraulics.

It is true that places with a slope of 8% on 13 Km should not be so common. Should go back 4000 years back and ask the Egyptians to make us a ramp, they were not ready : Lol:

Solid gravity storage does not seem to be envisaged by the Germans. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89nerg ... production
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by dede2002 » 11/03/15, 21:28

dirk pitt wrote:
dede2002 wrote:One question: in cities do elevators produce electricity on the way down? trains do it and for a long time.

Another: what mass operates the gravity lamp? because to read it takes at least 1 watt ?, during 1 / 2 h it would 1800 Joules, with 1kg (10N) it would need a height of 1800 / 10 = 180mètres?


for lifts, only the energy of the mass of the occupants of the cabin is recovered because the cabin is balanced by a counterweight of identical mass. thus, when the elevator goes up or down empty, it consumes only enough to overcome friction.

for the gravity light, the mass to put in the bag which serves weight is about 12kg and according to the desired luminous power (adjustable), this mass descends of 2m (it is the height that goes well to reassemble it easily) in about 10 to 20mn
12kg on 2m give about 250J is 0.07Wh
if the mass goes down in 10mn, we have a power of illumination (LED) of 0.4W it is weak but it lights up correctly


Thank you for the answer, it is necessary that the axes are sturdy to work long with 12 kg load!
For lifts, recovery is already done, fluently?
(the mass of people who go up and down is equal, except those who walk down)
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by dede2002 » 11/03/15, 21:29

izentrop wrote:Solar panels can be housed on the roofs of railway stations. This is an advantage over hydraulics.



http://www.20minutes.fr/nantes/853112-2 ... e-pose-eau
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