Storage of clean energy!

[Did67]

Other information: the Germans, with several thousand methanisation / cogeneration stations, began to ask the question of the stupid storage of biomethane: double the storage capacity of methane; to double the group of cogé: to stop it during the hollow of consumption; start both groups during peaks ...

This of course entails an additional cost, but which seems to me to have nothing to do with the projects we are discussing here:

- the life of the two groups, which only run half the time, is of course prolonged

- the additional storage tank is masonry / plastic cap: long life, low maintenance ...

So the extra cost is not the sum of the investment in this extra equipment ...

Ultimately, we can imagine "intelligent" management: when the PV produces thoroughly, "freeze" the anaerobic digestion stations; who would take over n, e producing twice as much at night, with a "bonus" in the current - this one being worth much more on the spot market!

[chatelot16]

+1

this solution is obvious!

long-term doubling the power of elctrogenic group does not cost anything since turning each less time it will last longer!

the storage of a few hours of methane in a gasometer does not cost too much

and there is also a way of modulating the production of a methanizer: when the agitation is stopped, the methane remains dissolved and the bacteria fall asleep ... when the stirring is restarted, the gas goes off!

the same reason can be done for all consumptions of electricity that can be modified easily

the last of the heat pumps can be equivalent to a storage of electricity if it starts when the network has rab instead of start anytime

[Did67]

the same reason can be done for all consumptions of electricity that can be modified easily

the last of the heat pumps can be equivalent to a storage of electricity if it starts when the network has rab instead of start anytime

1) Yes, with a few changes in mentality but also day-to-day information on demand, and undoubtedly a financial incentive, a lot of consumption can be postponed: the washing machine, the dishwasher (delayed start), but also freezers: modern devices (A + or A ++ or A +++) are so well insulated that they can stay up to 48 hours without current, so we can "recharge" cold in full night; and of course, the electric car ...

This is the principle of the "night rate" or erasure managed with the Voltalis box ...

2) Well, the CAP, I'm less fan of the idea: it's not renewable electricity; it is in a period of cold therefore necessarily with a more sustained demand and finally the CAP being generally a plaster on a wooden leg (to reduce the cost of the consumption of heating without reducing the consumption by the insulation), it will not be possible to postpone for a long time without getting cold ...

So I only half remember!

[moinsdewatt]

power battery storage1 MW, for the island of Gran Canaria. Capacity of 3 MW.h

ENR: Gran Canaria gets 1MW storage system (Li-ion)

31 August 2012 Enerzine

The world leader in the design and manufacture of industrial batteries announced yesterday its willingness to provide a system of energy storage lithium-ion (Li-ion) megawatt for one of the first projects large-scale electricity storage in Europe.
Beginning 2013, Saft's fully integrated storage system, capable of delivering a megawatt (MW) of electricity for three hours, will be commissioned on the Spanish island of Gran Canaria as part of the STORE project (Storage Technologies Of Reliable Energy). This innovative project led by Endesa aims to demonstrate that energy storage can maximize the integration of renewable energies - wind or photovoltaic - into electricity networks and optimize network infrastructures.

Endesa, a subsidiary of the Enel Group and Spain's leading electricity supplier, is piloting this 11 million, partly financed by the Center for the Development of Industrial Technologies (CDTI) of the Spanish Ministry of Economy and Competitiveness.



.........................
The system will provide 3 MWh of energy that will smooth the load peaks of a substation and offset the intermittent production of wind farms and photovoltaic facilities, while rendering network services such as control of the power station. frequency and voltage of the network.

......................

http://www.enerzine.com/15/14327+enr--- ... -ion+.html

3MW x 3h = 9MWh

11Meuro / 9MWh = 1,2 euro / Wh


comparison with a current battery of the genus 80euro 12V 100Ah

12V x 100Ah = 1200Wh
80 euro / 1200Wh = 0,066 euro / Wh

therefore lead acid batteries are not expensive compared to the previous project

remains the price of the converter to make the 50Hz

11Meuro / 3MW = 3,6 euro / W

small converter 100euro for 500W so 0,2 euro / W

so their thing has 11Meuro is not a feat! we can do the same thing and I think even cheaper without inventing anything

why do you multiply by 3?

The article speaks well of 1 MW during 3heures, which corresponds to 3 MW.h as said in the article.
So where does your x3 come from?

For me it is 3MW.h capacity for the startling sum of 11 million €.

[raymon]

A lead battery, a flywheel or hydrogen will be more expensive and with a lower performance than a step at sea as I showed in my previous post the efficiency of the system is about 80% and a dam is built for a long time a generator engine is cheap and durable. A step at sea that may be next to wind turbines.
One could find variants: at the top of a cliff in isolated area, in a cave or a mine as the Germans project.

[I Citro]

3MW x 3h = 9MWh
11Meuro / 9MWh = 1,2 euro / Wh

It is well indicated 1MW during 3h is 3MWh and not 9MWh.

comparison with a current battery of the genus 80euro 12V 100Ah

You compare with a car battery, unusable for this use ... A lead storage battery is double (about 200 €).

12V x 100Ah = 1200Wh
80 euro / 1200Wh = 0,066 euro / Wh

I correct so: 200 € / 1200Wh = 0,16 € / Wh or rather 166 € / kWh.
But it will replace about 8 times (material costs plus maintenance costs, logistics ...) before replacing lithium ...
Let 166 x 8 = 1333 € when a Chinese lithium battery is worth 3 at 4 times cheaper ...

therefore lead acid batteries are not expensive compared to the previous project

Yes, but they only have 300 at 500 life cycles versus 3000 at 4000 life cycles for lithium.
I do not even speak of their mass that would prohibit their use in containers.
The standard maximum mass of a container allowing it only 22 tons of payload, this greatly reduces the volume capacity because it does not reduce the volume of the CT which is standard while its mass is at the maximum.

remains the price of the converter to make the 50Hz
11Meuro / 3MW = 3,6 euro / W

We can not compare as well. Even for a GRID TIE CONVERTER installed at home, the price is not limited to the device ...

Here we have the price of the container, batteries, converters, thermal regulation, telemetry / remote management, all the integration / engineering ...

small converter 100euro for 500W so 0,2 euro / W

Such a converter is sometimes not even ventilated ... and guaranteed until the failure ...

so their thing has 11Meuro is not a feat! we can do the same thing and I think even cheaper without inventing anything

I did not hear anywhere that it was a feat
It is a high power product designed with high engineering resources by a VERY reputed company especially in aeronautics and space.
The price per kWh of storage represents only 10 times the price of only lithium batteries of Chinese technology, whereas here we have the ultimate of a French company.
Currently, the only electronic management of batteries (excluding air conditioning) already represents 30% additional cost.
I find it VERY COMPETITIVE.

These systems have a real future as an extension of the development of renewable energies.
They will coteriate the storage systems inertial, chemical salts molten, various thermal ... According to the size and the nature of the installations.

We are here on an island application where it is very relevant.

[moinsdewatt]

3MW x 3h = 9MWh
11Meuro / 9MWh = 1,2 euro / Wh

It is well indicated 1MW during 3h is 3MWh and not 9MWh. ......

Yes, we are two to know how to read.

[Did67]

We are here on an island application where it is very relevant.

I think that's what's important!

The wire is "generalist" (storage of electricity from ENR); it is legitimate to wonder about "feasibility" in the sense "is it a generalizable solution on a large scale?"

The comparison with lead batteries, or other lithium batteries or whatever I know is only an element.

If lead storage is not "fundable", the fact that it is not more expensive does not prove anything.

Apart of course from specific situations: islands, isolated houses or the delivery from another source would be "even more expensive"!

As the debate is not the same for an electric car because we will compare to gasoline ...

In short, everyone is a little right ... It's just the angle of attack that is not the same!

For my part, I do not think it's like that, even with the rectified calculations, that we will use solar renewable at night, on a large scale (continental Europe).

Because we must add the cost of production!

[I Citro]

For my part, I do not think it's like that, even with the rectified calculations, that we will use solar renewable at night, on a large scale (continental Europe).

Because we must add the cost of production!

This is not my opinion.
- The costs of fossil fuels including nuclear energy are largely undervalued and distorted by various charges that are (voluntarily) not taken into account (cost of dismantling nuclear power plants, deficit trade balance for importing energy materials, etc.)

- The costs of production of renewable energy are infrastructure costs, and maintenance, certainly high but lacking the fuel purchase budget ...

Finally, photovoltaic, wind and solar thermal energy are INTERMITTENT energies. Storage is essential to properly exploit these resources, DAY AS NIGHT.

I heard this week on the radio a anti-wind / pro nuclear lobbyist who said the wind was not viable and had to stop because it was intermittent.


This is true, but the reciprocal is also true for the nuclear power, which is not modular (the hydraulics that we start up accelerates and stops at a fast pace being the champion of flexibility and the nuclear one that has the greater inertia) and for this reason is unable to respond to intermittent consumption.

The solution to these 2 problems therefore goes:
- 1 Through the interconnected global network, the SMART GRID.
- 2 By storage at all scales and under bays its forms including in electric vehicles.
- 3 By a drastic hunt for wastes, which is the first point in order of importance.

[Christophe]

Other information: the Germans, with several thousand methanisation / cogeneration stations, began to ask the question of the stupid storage of biomethane: double the storage capacity of methane; to double the group of cogé: to stop it during the hollow of consumption; start both groups during peaks ...
(...)

Quite, there is even a subject dedicated to this method: https://www.econologie.com/forums/la-methani ... 11782.html