Energy storage gravity

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
sicetaitsimple
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by sicetaitsimple » 08/01/18, 10:49

chatelot16 wrote:we see the http://www.rte-france.com/fr/eco2mix/donnees-de-marche that the price of electricity varies every day in a much greater way, so if the steps are used correctly they must pump and turbine each day to the maximum of their power! but the steps are too small ... if it were sufficient there would not be as great a variation in the price of electricity

i


This is the whole paradox! Because if there were more (from STEP), there would indeed be less variations in electricity prices, and therefore they would lose their profitability!

This is what I wrote two pages before:

"This is the confusion that often exists when we talk about electricity storage. The value is the service rendered, not just the quantity that can be stored, which will necessarily be limited, unless you have infinite pockets.
And the more the quantity increases, the more the value decreases, message to those who would say "yaka do storage".
"
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Gaston
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by Gaston » 08/01/18, 11:20

sicetaitsimple wrote:"This is the confusion that often exists when we talk about electricity storage. The value is the service rendered, not just the quantity that can be stored, which will necessarily be limited, unless you have infinite pockets.
And the more the quantity increases, the more the value decreases, message to those who would say "yaka do storage".
"
The whole ambiguity is whether this "value" should be estimated only in money (in the context of a capitalist society) or in "social utility" (pollution not emitted by other power plants, oil or gas). not purchased from foreign producers, ...) ...

Certain investments can be profitable socially while being loss-making in the accounts (a bit like education, hospitals or the police : Mrgreen: ).
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by sicetaitsimple » 08/01/18, 11:31

Gaston wrote:
sicetaitsimple wrote:"This is the confusion that often exists when we talk about electricity storage. The value is the service rendered, not just the quantity that can be stored, which will necessarily be limited, unless you have infinite pockets.
And the more the quantity increases, the more the value decreases, message to those who would say "yaka do storage".
"
The whole ambiguity is whether this "value" should be estimated only in money (in the context of a capitalist society) or in "social utility" (pollution not emitted by other power plants, oil or gas). not purchased from foreign producers, ...) ...

Certain investments can be profitable socially while being loss-making in the accounts (a bit like education, hospitals or the police : Mrgreen: ).


Yes, education, hospitals, police, ...

But here we are talking about industrial investments of which in general that which invests expects a certain financial profitability.
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Gaston
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by Gaston » 08/01/18, 11:41

sicetaitsimple wrote:But here we are talking about industrial investments of which in general that which invests expects a certain financial profitability.
Because we decided it that way.
We could privatize hospitals and the police, yet we don't (yet).
Was it necessary and compulsory to privatize the energy production sector or could it include objectives other than financial :?:
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by sicetaitsimple » 08/01/18, 11:45

Gaston wrote:Was it necessary and compulsory to privatize the energy production sector or could it include objectives other than financial :?:


It's a great question, but I'm used to the problem of not rewriting the story and taking the initial situation as it is.
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by Gaston » 08/01/18, 11:50

sicetaitsimple wrote:It's a great question, but I'm used to the problem of not rewriting the story and taking the initial situation as it is.
When you refrain from questioning the current situation, there is not always a (good) solution. : Mrgreen:
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lilian07
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by lilian07 » 10/01/18, 15:31

Yes but there, with the renewable one we are in the economic reality thus in the real life with prices which collapse ... it remains for us to understand and to want (political) that we must change the way of using l energy with simple means. Where we controlled production more or less on demand we must continue and control consumption and production at the same time. With the rapid fall in prices for renewables, its increase in yield associated with the fall in prices for storage ... I do not give much credit to the forecasts of the energy mix. It is necessary to electrify everything in France and in Europe and to pass before 2040 to 90% renewable (realistic today including with intermitance). In this sense the optimistic forecasts on the part of the renewable in the electric consumption and for me exceeded and will be much larger than expected ....
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by Bardal » 10/01/18, 20:35

lilian07 wrote:Yes but there, with the renewable one we are in the economic reality thus in the real life with prices which collapse ... it remains for us to understand and to want (political) that we must change the way of using l energy with simple means. Where we controlled production more or less on demand we must continue and control consumption and production at the same time. With the rapid fall in prices for renewables, its increase in yield associated with the fall in prices for storage ... I do not give much credit to the forecasts of the energy mix. It is necessary to electrify everything in France and in Europe and to pass before 2040 to 90% renewable (realistic today including with intermitance). In this sense the optimistic forecasts on the part of the renewable in the electric consumption and for me exceeded and will be much larger than expected ....


I want this bright future ...

But the day when Germany substantially lowered photovoltaic subsidies, investments in PV immediately fell by 90% ... price drop or not ... If tomorrow we were in the "real life" of free undistorted competition, we would see what all this gives.
As for the fall in storage prices, I do not quite understand what we are talking about ...

In the meantime, the weight of new renewable energies weighs less than 25% in Germany (electricity, not energy consumed), despite the € 400bn invested, and in France, we painfully reached 6%, despite a few dozen of invested billions and an absolute priority of renewable energies on the network ...

that said, I am undoubtedly handsomely paid by the nuk-edf lobby ...
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by lilian07 » 10/01/18, 21:23

I think that nuclear power will help renewable energies in the transition, but we can already see it despite an incomparable load factor for nuclear energy.
Nuclear will cost more in the future and the price of renewable energy production is plummeting. Storage (in particular that of batteries), which is the keystone of the production system, sees its cost plummeting even faster than any other development in production technology and system performance (mainly photovoltaic and wind).
At this rate, we could consider Kwh prices so low that no fossil resource could fight (90% of the time ....).
I even think that we could see a cost per electric kWh approaching 1 cent well before 2030.
The association of intelligent control of all energy (production and consumption) with a very low storage price (the explosion of the electric vehicle helping ...) and significant gains in efficiency and production of renewable energy systems not to mention the sobriety of the energy receivers (heating, household appliances, industry, car, etc.) will inevitably cause the price of Kwh to plummet.
It remains to be seen at what ecological price and to what extent it will change the wealth of hand.
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by sicetaitsimple » 10/01/18, 21:41

lilian07 wrote:I even think that we could see a cost per electric kWh approaching 1 cent well before 2030.


What kWh are you talking about? In production, transported, transported and distributed, distributed and taxed, self-produced and stored (and taxed)?
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