Summer geothermal solar heating project for winter

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dedeleco
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Summer geothermal solar heating project for winter




by dedeleco » 12/10/12, 14:16

I reproduce the project envisaged by Did67:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post242139.html#242139
Did67 wrote:
dedeleco wrote:
To heat for free in winter with summer heat, it has been working since 2007, with good efficiency, at:
www.dlsc.ca



This system interests me as part of a project related to my work.

Unfortunately I have not found any financial data: how much does this whole installation cost: drilling, pipes, connectors, pre-storage and the control system? For what surface (or what heating power? [Well, the power, I can guess via the assessments that are put].


This system is new and therefore the price of a first realization with exploratory research in Canada, has no reference value to make a decision. Everything can be simplified, and in my opinion you just have to try before a big achievement.
For example, on a greenhouse that needs less 20 ° C and that is content with 10 ° C or even just be frost-free in winter.
I want to try ultra-simple in the 83, not cold, to take the place of my scam heat pump, but I do not have 20 or 25 mm drills with long extensions easily in the trade.


My current thoughts in addition to those on econology:

https://www.econologie.com/forums/chaleur-d- ... 28-20.html

https://www.econologie.com/forums/dedeleco-o ... 99-30.html

What seems fascinating to me is the simplicity, drilling easy holes a few meters deep a little more than 3 to 6m, and everything is accessible to the handyman at home in his garden for a system both new and very old in the caves prehistoric, for a solar thermal with shallow geothermal storage, eliminating all CO2, all nuclear, all pollution, in perpetuity, to heat !!

I put assessments of orders of magnitude and links on this type of interseasonal heating (on google) on econology to fix the guiding principles, which have been discussed on econology, with fairly disparate techo choices, shallow or deep, by Obamot often (with his fallacy from the gas power plant), and above all the serious problem of traffic deep waters, to be blocked if they exist by injections of product blocking this circulation, cheap cement ou same product making water solid by soaking up water.

A basic figure that fixes the ideas is that one stores roughly 10KWh / m3 earth (clay for example, a little more in the rock) by heating it from 36 ° C in addition to 20 ° C to 56 ° C (a Canadian well having 3 times minus 12 ° C, in variation of T gives 3 times less in reserve before freezing, with a heat pump)
You have to descend more than 3 to 6 m.

There are other various achievements and studies with published technical articles to read, which I did not research thoroughly.
For dlsc.ca, there must be detailed articles in paid trade journals to have the article.

The price in my opinion is very strongly a function of the methods of realization, the nature of the ground, soft or hard, the method of drilling holes which can be of small diameter with pipes of small diameter, as made by the specialists of injection of expanding foam to straighten houses and buildings with collapsed foundations ( Uretek or Géosec ).
I saw them do it, they pierce the foundations and the ground underneath manually with a long drill like butter with a perforating drill, quickly to thread pipes of small diameters, about 20mm, easily already a good depth of several meters.
I think that with the same system there is a way to greatly reduce the price compared to large wells of 150mm or 200mm well conventional for wells, a price however not astronomical.
It is better to increase the density of these small diameter boreholes;

At home, I want to try, to measure, with the simplest material, hand drill, long drill, since it is very simple with a simple inexpensive 16mm hose (the one for drip irrigation is very well, solid more than 10 years in the sun in my garden, usable in earthen holes, as well as for simple and cheap thermal solar collectors of summer shown on Apper, econology and internet, just under plastics.

It's super easy to make, except for me, get me long drills, put end to end of small diameter 20mm or 30mm.
You can easily find up to 1m but no more.
There are also sellers of drilling equipment who can generally supply larger diameters, 150 or 200mm or less as 50mm with a geotechnical drilling auger.
For a large project, the price of such an auger is not excessive, (price of car or van) used and owned by all soil survey professionals.
We should be able to rent them.
So the price is that of labor to drill, and then much lower than that of larger diameter drilling.

I want to try at home by drilling in my gardens with a perforator, far from the foundations of houses, (heating the ground is like having a heat wave that cracks the clay under the foundations and therefore the house). The best place is under the asphalt of a nearby car park, by drilling at an angle.

The only problem for me is to have long bits put end to end of small diameter. So trying and measuring the thermal properties of the soil is easy.
The problem is that professional equipment is not very accessible to DIY enthusiasts.

Otherwise the development of inexpensive and fast simple drilling would be interesting, with drill at the end of the small diameter pipe to bury and thread, with circulation of water and pressurized air to rotate the drill, and to remove debris, which would allow the pipe to follow a path in large U underground, as a kind of micro-robot (or like a robotic mole).
In my opinion, with a little imagination there is a way to greatly reduce the cost price, to very little.
Everything else can be very inexpensive, the pipe costs less than € 40 per 100m, put underground as well as under the sun !!

For the circulating groundwater, there is also a way to block it by injection of the product which swells and solidifies the water, or with pressurized cement, a method already developed for large-scale works.

I think, to identify the best solutions, that we must try simple, by investing not too much, just what is necessary, by avoiding spending too much, in what is not essential, and thus by trying different variants, of this system which is basically very simple compared to any other technological system currently used, such as a heat pump, a Stirling or a nuclear power plant.

It is accessible to DIY enthusiasts to develop with imagination.

In France we prefer big projects and we despise what is to be made cheap, specialty of the Japanese who made the general public inexpensive in large numbers, very expensive systems at the start, such as the microwave oven or the heat pump .
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by Did67 » 12/10/12, 15:36

For my part, I place myself in a perspective of "sustainable turnkey project".

One thing is the "tinkering" that everyone can do. That everyone is free to do ...

Another thing is to "develop" a technology that can be duplicated under prevailing economic conditions.

You can chuaff hot water with a black plastic pipe that hangs in your lawn. It is a "self-made individual solar water heater" (CESISM).

Or we can have a CESI installed by a Qualisol certified craftsman.

The first project will cost 100 euros.

The second 5.

So if someone has data or technical or financial information relating to heat storage underground, I am interested.

My project is in the following context:

- finalization of a 180 kW electric biomethane station and slightly less heat available

- valorization of a good part of the heat available in the form of resale to a factory which needs it to produce hot water (in partial susbitutuion of a gas boiler).

- there is an excess of heat, which has not yet been precisely quantified, especially on weekends

- the idea would be to bake it in the ground, according to a "dlsc" system (but perhaps horizontal?) in order to produce vegetables in the off-season (therefore the losses controlled upwards would not be an obstacle, on condition of not disturbing the rooting; the storage surafec would be covered with tunnels to "keep" the heat while enhancing it) ...

The system must therefore not be too expensive ...
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by chatelot16 » 12/10/12, 15:50

the concern that I have with the storage in the ground is that there is a lot of loss: it is good when it allows to store free solar heat in summer for winter ... that l '' we recover in winters 1/2 or 1/10 it can be profitable if the system is not too expensive

for heat storage from the weekend to the following days it is not the same case

it's a limited amount of heat: if it's to lose half of it it's not even worth it to start

to store on a few days I really see better the simple water tank: and at least everything is calculable without inventing anything ... the heat capacity of the water and the thermal resistance of the insulators are starting to be known!

for the tank in small dimension it is steel ... in larger it is the reinforced concrete made with aluminous cement melted to suport without problem the 100 ° of boiling water
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by Did67 » 12/10/12, 16:03

I poorly expressed myself: it is throughout the summer (weekend, holidays from the factory which buys us hot water) that we would store in the ground to cultivate in "out of season" (end of autumn / spring) vegetables with "highest value" (out of season / early vegetables ...).

Because it seems to me that normally, at a certain moment, you arrive at a gradient and that in the center, you do not lose much more ... When you cool this nucleus, the flow reverses ...

But I am not a thermodynamicist, and I stumble upon the evaluation of this question: what would be the "wave" of heat? what is the gradient? and what would be the "yield" (LV energy recovered at ground level / high temperature energy injected - exit from the cogé) ...

I still don't know if it's just an idea of ​​phew ...

It is obvious that the injected heat is lost anyway (it will go into an air heater, because the engine must be cooled). If 50% is recovered, the value of this 50% must reimburse the installation and if possible cost less than a heat pump or a boiler!

It will in any case be a development after one or two years of operation. I would then have data on the deposit available: how much? when?
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by dedeleco » 12/10/12, 16:30

Did67 wrote:For my part, I place myself in a perspective of "sustainable turnkey project".

- there is an excess of heat, which is not yet precisely quantified, especially weekends

- the idea would be to bake it in the ground, according to a "dlsc" system (but perhaps horizontal?) in order to produce vegetables in the off-season (therefore the losses controlled upwards would not be an obstacle, on condition of not disturbing the rooting; the storage surface would be covered with tunnels to "keep" the heat while enhancing it) ...

The system must therefore not be too expensive ...


It is fundamentally different from wwwdlsc.ca especially on the duration of the week instead of summer to winter, ie 7 days instead of 120 days and more.

So the depth can be much smaller like the square root of the storage times, with a heat leak to the roots to be quantified in order of magnitude, like the temperature T = 60 ° C to 80 ° C probably, and the total heat to store, which it fixes the greenhouse surface to heat.

If it's good humus, the heat diffusion is much weaker a little above 0,1mm2 / s instead of 1mm2 / s of the clay, which reduces the depth by rac (10) = 3 or for 11,7 days = 1million seconds, 32cm instead of the meter.

The heat flow is likely to be excessive for the roots and therefore a network of collection tubes, independent of the heating storage tubes, is much deeper at this depth to cool to 20 ° C max by heating the tight.
The operation will be very dependent on the external T, between large frost and mild outside winter

A little less than 180kW, i.e. 150KW at T = 50 ° C to 80 ° C, to be stored over 2 weekend days (about 2 and a half days 60h from Friday evening to Monday morning) gives a heat of 60x150 = 9000kWh, important, (enough to heat a BBC house over an entire winter or 1/3 to 1/4 of an old house) which fixes the volume of soil to store at 56 ° C about 900m3 or between 1 and 2m deep in good humus garden, a minimum area of ​​90m2, and less if you put it deeper.
A moderately insulated greenhouse, with double plastic film, will consume significantly less in a week (like an old house 200kWh / m2 for the whole winter, (minus the local solar gain) and therefore over 7 to 10 days, instead of 120, it will be at least 12 times less, or about 17KWh / m2week, or for 90m2 around 1530 KWh (to be specified according to the greenhouse, with the gardener, with what he actually consumes and the weather) instead of 9000KWh and therefore the greenhouse surface must be 5 to 6 times larger in order not to become a sauna.

We must also consider what happens outside of winter, in mild weather but with residual heating, almost useless for a greenhouse ???

It is an initial ladle assessment, but one that avoids 10 possible error factors.

But it is easy to have errors of evaluation according to the weather and it is necessary to envisage an evacuation of excess heat.
It may be good not to store everything in the greenhouse.

The flow under the roots is controllable with a deep insulator underground and above all a fairly low storage T on a volume of soil 3 times greater (max 30 ° C?).

In my opinion more complex at the thermal level than dlsc.ca considering the greenhouse above and the very variable thermal conditions in earth according to the weather.
dlsc.ca does not worry much about the flow to the surface.

It is necessary to specify the maximum storage time necessary, which fixes the depth and what happens in mild weather, and the size of the current greenhouses, with their actual losses.

There are boxes that do horizontal drilling for pipes without disturbing the surface (see internet).
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by chatelot16 » 12/10/12, 17:53

dedeleco you always talk to us about broadcast times, but it's not the number that counts for thermal storage

the thermal storage is made to operate for a long time for years and tens of years: we can therefore consider that the heated earth zone is always hot, a little more or a little less depending on whether the storage is full or empty ... therefore the power lost only depends on the thermal resistance towards infinity ... it is the calculation in steady state which counts ... the distance at which the annual variation of the temperature propagates does not interest me

when I see the energy that we get from a geothermal drilling: we can cool it with a heat pump, the heat from the rest of the earth gets there, and we don't store cold

if the heat pumps on dry geothermal drilling work well it is the proof that the storage of heat in the ground is not good

store a few days to produce domestic hot water at a factory or a community is much easier: the heat of the tank is useful until completely cold ... simply towards the end the remaining heat does a little preheating adduction water before heating it with engine heat

I find the distribution of sanitary hot water to a large number of houses simpler than the distribution of heating: a single pipe ... the system is useful all year round, except for those who have solar heating
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by dedeleco » 12/10/12, 18:36

Always, without end, the same problem of understanding thermal conduction with its diffusion, used and well understood at www.dlsc.ca , in a free land and much cheaper to drill than a huge water tank of 500m3 minimum for a single usual house, from summer to winter. The tank will not be better insulated over the summer to winter period, unusable in my home, excessive swimming pool price, unnecessary space in my garden, while drilling holes of 20 to 30mm in diameter in the ground does not demolish my garden, costs almost nothing, just the extension drills (not found without being pro drilling), by doing it myself.

It is staggering the difficulty to understand this reality that water containers, like swimming pools are very expensive, and Christophe bought a house with such a reserve of 70m3 very insufficient, poorly insulated (difficult given its weight)

Storage is for a finite duration, here 7 days apparently, we put then we take back what we put, which decreases the losses, which are also lost with a large tank, which it does not have a great thickness around insulation, unlike the earth which is its own insulator, of increasing thickness with time (square root).
Read diffusivity and thermal conduction on wikipedia with great care.
For example, the heat flow under our earth, outside hot spots and volcanoes, corresponds to more than 1000 ° C on the surface, about 200 million years ago, with a progressive cooling in depth by diffusion and thermal conduction? this time is the duration of existence of almost all the terrestrial layers, in particular of the oceanic bottoms and one calculates, that on this duration the temperature of 1000 ° C fell to approximately 30km of depth, which corresponds to l thickness of solid layers of earth under our feet which gives the heat flow of about 1 ° C / 30m, observed on average. (See wikipedia for course)

Here it is the same, the losses are higher at the start and decrease over time (which is not the case for a large tank except buried).
In addition, as we heat cycle then recovery by putting cold there we lose much less.

On the other hand, there are beautiful examples of deep geothermal energy, even in the Paris region, which has dried up in decades, like the thermal flux of the earth over 200 million years, which has become very weak !!

Everything is a matter of luck on the flow of water in depth to renew, a complete draw.

Some have come to renew the heat in this deep exhausting geothermal energy, by the heat of the garbage burnt in summer to find it in winter (they could put the summer solar one as well !!, but the heat of garbage is wasted in summer wasted !!!)


Finally we must ask New York City how much they lose in the distribution of hot water throughout the city, in insulated pipes in principle.

So some usual classic solutions are not so perfect, nor the cheapest, apart from not disturbing habits.
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Re: Geothermal Solar Heating Project Summer for Winter




by moinsdewatt » 12/10/12, 20:08

dedeleco wrote: ... In France we prefer big projects and we despise what is to be made cheap, specialty of the Japanese who made the general public inexpensive in large numbers, very expensive systems at the outset, such as the microwave or the heat pump.


Pffff

In France you can very well buy and install solar thermal panels.
It is not a very big project.
It's not that expensive and it works very well.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 12/10/12, 22:52

Only the solar thermal panels give not at all the same thing, between summer and winter, (sun then very low, full of clouds with rain), with a huge difference in energy !!!

So instead of tweaking luggages on expensive high-performance panels in principle in winter, it is better to store the excess solar energy in summer, it totally wasted, with cheap panels, to store it underground, with holes not dear too and keep it warm in winter, as done in www.dlsc.ca , functional since 2007 at 1000m altitude, at the latitude of the north of Belgium !!!

That nobody does it in France !!
and it is even despised by some.


Solar sanitation works well in summer, much less in winter, but perfectly useless for me and my wife, since all summer we take showers at T of cold tap water, (not cold at all at 20 ° C after a short passage on the surface, spontaneous CESI) from June to September, for years !!!

Solar thermal is therefore almost useless in summer, with nothing to heat, and does not work in cold winter, under the clouds.

Yesterday, doing my daily yoging exercise at 30% slope by running a drop of 200m, I took a nice rain shower at 15 ° C, fully wet to the bones !!! without any problem, heated by my intense exercise !!

Even this All Saints' holiday which arrives, once again, with the family, we will bathe in the sea much colder, sometimes at 15 ° C, skin naked, if not lucky, as we have been doing for years in late October and at Easter !!!

One of my beautiful daughters, bathes and swims, in cold water even at 15 ° C with pleasure for miles !!
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by Aumicron » 13/10/12, 09:59

For Did67, I think the "roller tunnel" technique should meet your needs. Although it has never aroused great interest in econology, I invite you to read the 2 interventions of minguinhirigue from here :

https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-t ... tml#166155
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