More wind turbines but as much CO2

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Christophe
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More wind turbines but as much CO2




by Christophe » 21/02/08, 10:32

A small article that will please Jean63 since written by his idol :) (I believe?)

Investigation. More wind turbines, not less CO2, Le Monde, 14/02/08. Herve Kempf

The mayor is happy: five wind turbines, 135 m high, stand above the plain. In early February, the town of Saint-Andre-Farivillers (Oise) saw the blades of its new wind farm, with a power of 11,5 megawatts (MW), begin to turn. As the operating company, Enertrag France, will pay the municipality a professional tax each year (around 700 euros per MW and per point of professional tax), Claude Le Couteulx expects almost 40 euros in additional revenue.

"We have two factories which pay in the order of 60 euros, he says. This new resource is welcome. I don't have a football field for young people. Signage costs the skin on the buttocks. : we are going to make a map at the entrance to the village. And then, we will continue to redo the stained glass windows of our 000th century church. Moreover, with the wind turbines, we had to widen the communal roads to four meters, and will have to maintain them. " The council also hopes to help the poorest of its 550 administrators to pay for the renovation of the individual sanitation of their house, which is compulsory.
The project, carried enthusiastically by the mayor, has attracted almost no criticism in the village. The director of Enertrag, Philippe Gouverneur, welcomes this welcome. His company expects from the park, which requires an investment of around 16 million euros, an average profitability exceeding 10% per year.
The development of wind power is unquestionably a good business for the communes as for the companies which are employed there. Although wind generated electricity is currently among the most expensive, its profitability is ensured by a tax levied on the invoices of all subscribers. The objective is precisely to encourage the growth of this renewable energy.

But what is good for municipalities and for companies is it good for the community? Are wind turbines an effective way to fight climate change? The answer obviously seemed yes. Until the publication of a study carried out by the Sustainable Environment Federation, bringing together associations opposed to wind turbines, which throws a pave in the pond (see http://environnementdurable.net).

The author of the study, Marc Lefranc, vice-president of the federation, compared the evolution of CO2 emissions (carbon dioxide), the main greenhouse gas, of the most developed countries in Europe. wind turbines. Logically, since wind turbines do not emit CO2, these countries should present a particularly favorable balance sheet.

But figures from the European statistical office Eurostat show that Germany, despite a wind farm of over 18 MW, has seen CO000 emissions per capita from the energy sector not decrease but increase by 2, 1,2%, between 2000 and 2005. Spain, with more than 10 MW, experienced an increase of 000% over the same period. Denmark, the world champion in wind turbines given its small population, has seen a drop of 10,4%. But, in fact, observes Mr. Lefranc, the doubling of electricity imports from Denmark largely explains this good result. In total, summarizes the document, the development of the wind presents a balance sheet "very disappointing from an economic and environmental point of view".
Certainly, you have to take the circumstances into account. Thus, Spain has experienced a very significant economic development, which has exploded the consumption of electricity. Germany has integrated its eastern part, whose electricity consumption has increased sharply to reach the level of the western part. And one wonders if, without wind turbines, their emissions would not have been even higher.

But the study poses a question surprisingly neglected by energy institutions: to what extent can wind power reduce CO2 emissions? The International Energy Agency is silent on the subject; the Energy Management Agency (Ademe) does not provide an answer. An analysis was conducted indirectly, in France, by Reseau de transport d'electricite (RTE), on the problem of the intermittent supply of electricity by wind turbines. This can force the use of thermal power stations when consumption peaks in winter are combined with a lack of wind. In fact, observes RTE in its 2007 forecast report, the "power excursions to be satisfied by the thermal equipment" are increased "more and more significantly when the wind farm grows".
Experts in favor of wind power find it difficult to answer the question posed by the study of the Sustainable Environment Federation. "If consumption increases when the population increases, this absorbs the small gain made possible by wind power", observes Pierre Radanne, an independent expert. "It is sure that, if we do not make an effort to save energy, wind power is useless," said Raphael Claustre, director of the Renewable Energies Liaison Center.

"Reduce consumption"

In fact, wind power only makes sense in the context of a global energy policy aimed at controlling electricity consumption: "The first thing to do is to reduce consumption, notes Jean-Louis Bal , charge of renewable energies to Ademe, but nobody does. "
The reasoning is confirmed by Jean-Marc Jancovici, engineer and member of the ecological watch committee of the Nicolas Hulot Foundation: "What we see in Germany and Spain is that more renewable energy does not necessarily mean less In fact, the promoters of wind power do like the promoters of nuclear power: they favor a supply policy, whereas it is a demand policy that is necessary. Better to encourage society to accept an increase in the price of electricity which will push it to reduce its consumption, than to develop wind power. "

While 7 MW of wind energy is forecast in France in 000, the number of gas-fired power plants should also increase by almost 2012 MW. An example of this paradox is found near Saint-Brieuc (Cotes-d'Armor), where Gaz de France projects a 10 MW gas power plant while Poweo is preparing an offshore wind farm of comparable power. An expertise carried out at the request of elected officials showed that there would suddenly be more energy than the department needed.

"Wind turbines remind me of first-generation agrofuels, explains Marc Lefranc. At the beginning, we thought it was good, and then when we took the environmental assessment, we realized that it was very questionable. in relation to climate change, the first thing to do is to put in place energy saving techniques. And then, to prioritize renewable energies in order to invest wisely. "


More: small nuclear and wind comparison
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by Christophe » 21/02/08, 10:41

And yet:

The largest wind farm in France inaugurates Saturday in Pas-de-Calais, AFP, 15/02/08

Fruges (Pas-de-Calais) (AFP) - 10:34 am - The largest wind farm in France, with 70 wind turbines representing a cumulative power of 140 megawatts, was to be inaugurated on Saturday in Pas-de-Calais, the company announced on Friday Ostwind International, project manager, in a press release.
These wind turbines, installed on 16 different sites in the canton of Fruges, in the center of the department, will supply some 150.000 households with electricity, according to the Strasbourg-based branch of the German group Ostwind.
The regional elected representatives are invited on this occasion to participate in a "forum renewable energies "during the weekend. And on Saturday morning, schoolchildren had to drop a thousand blue balloons.
"Our country is rich in wind. And with this project, we will be able to implement our ambitions," said the mayor of Fruges, Jean-Jacques Hilmoine.
The installation of the wind farm made it possible to create "several jobs" in the area (realization, services, technical management of the installations), underlines the press release which assures that the project will be profitable "in terms of tax revenue and rent".
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by jean63 » 21/02/08, 11:11

Hervé Kempf .......... I didn't know him before he wrote his book "How the rich destroy the planet".

He is not my idol and I do not agree with 100% what he says, there is also Jancovici, in particular his last publication in his site www.manicore.com , to which you referred .. you can remind me of the subject STP, oh yes on the "buyback" of CO2 emissions, I completely agree with him.

Give me back the address of the post that references this STP article.

The development of wind power is unquestionably a good business for the communes as for the companies which are employed there. Although wind generated electricity is currently among the most expensive, its profitability is ensured by a tax levied on the invoices of all subscribers. The objective is precisely to encourage the growth of this renewable energy.


This is the main argument in favor of wind turbines, it brings money to the municipalities.

I know one in Haute-Loire, a small village in Ally where there were windmills (which is rare or unique in Auvergne). They have a huge park; it is an unexpected income for such a "hole".

For the reduction of CO2 emissions, well here we have the answer.

As long as energy consumption increases more than production, we will not get there, because without speaking of the countries already consumers, there will be new consumers (Eastern Europe, China, India ...) .

Give the Kyoto, Bali, IPCC congresses, Al Gore, Grenelle of the environment ... it is useless since we continue to consume always more, to sell 4X4 (the rich can pay an additional cost of 2 or 3000 euros of ecological tax, this is not what will prevent them from buying it), large German sedans (in Brazil, it is sold more and more because the number of very wealthy is increasing rapidly).

So oil, gas and nuclear have a bright future ..... until the collapse. The TGV is launched, no way to stop it.
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by Christophe » 21/02/08, 11:44

jean63 wrote:Give me back the address of the post that references this STP article.


That one?
https://www.econologie.com/forums/compensati ... t4846.html

For the rest +1 with you ...
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by jean63 » 21/02/08, 12:06

Christophe wrote:
jean63 wrote:Give me back the address of the post that references this STP article.


That one?
https://www.econologie.com/forums/compensati ... t4846.html

For the rest +1 with you ...

Yes compensation, that's right.

How can we buy back CO2 that has already been emitted into the atmosphere?

We can balance, but what is emitted is emitted, it's already too late.
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by Obelix » 21/02/08, 12:16

Hello,

We also very often forget the technical problems of synchronization of the transport network.
For a large wind farm, we have to build a production plant in the same region which will restore current and voltage to resynchronize at 50 Hertz.
It cannot be done over long distances without significant losses due to the propagation time which causes a dry loss of power (the famous COS phi).
The problem of this production plant therefore arises:
Hydraulics is very good but saturated in France
At Charcoal it's very bad but technically imperative

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by Christophe » 21/02/08, 12:23

Here is an overview of the doc in question:
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by frl » 21/02/08, 12:29

Here is a study by RTE which is in complete opposition to the article from the clearly biased world.

http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.f ... ticle=2907

Extract: "Wind power generation essentially replaces production from fossil fuels, as the RTE forecast scenarios show."

RTE taking care of bringing production to consumption, I would be tempted to think that they know what they are talking about!

So who to believe?

The reasoning which consists in saying consume less is untenable vis-à-vis countries like India, China and other countries in the process of development.
So for want of consuming less, wouldn't it be worth consuming better? Better meaning both to consume better (avoid unnecessary travel, heating during absences ...) more efficiently (public transport) and more environmentally friendly production (renewable energy).

Unfortunately, I haven't counted on the civility of my compatriots for a long time (you just have to look on the ground to see that people don't care about their living environment). So to consume less we can always wait, 4x4 it will always sell ...

Nothing is all black or all white. To say everywhere that wind turbines do not reduce CO2 production and are therefore useless is as stupid (to be polite) as to say consume, consume we are there to sell!

There is not one solution (good and the others are bad) but solutions that must be combined.
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by loop » 21/02/08, 21:45

Bonsoir

To say that wind power forces EDF to invest in compensation centers is one thing, to say that we do not save CO2 is another.
There is always a tendency to mix effects and causes, in order to drown the fish better or to sow confusion in public opinion.

When a wind turbine turns with the wind, it produces in place of a fossil fuel power plant. This is necessarily beneficial for CO2 emissions.
If you have to start a coal-fired power station on December 25 to heat and light the homes that will attract Santa Claus, I don't see how wind turbines are responsible for it.
EDF has despised wind and other ERs in favor of nuclear power, which is much easier to sell and to justify after a military research program.
Today EDF is forced to buy electricity from wind farms, and bites his fingers. Nuclear costs it less to produce, but at what ecological cost?
Faced with the obvious lack of coherence between investment choices and consumption habits, EDF found its scapegoat to justify its technical choices.

Somewhere there is something for everyone.
The complainers have their Don Quixote mill, EDF knows how to silence rumors about nuclear power, large investors have found their niche at 10% profitability. Perhaps even we could find insider trading when the obligation buyout which was imposed in France, at the same time as the wind power development program was decided by the government.

What about ecology and the greenhouse effect? Well, we manage to no longer know what we are talking about.
We forget that:
A modern wind turbine produces in 6 months the equivalent of the energy necessary for its entire construction. Find me a single installation of electric production which could compete.

The wind turbines near my home (I pass every day in front of the St André Farivillers park, see text n ° 1 by Christophe) rotate more than 75% of the time.

If EDF had invested in wind power in time, it would be master of this production and the sector would have created thousands of jobs in France for the design, manufacture, installation and maintenance of machines!

If you want photos of the park mentioned above, let me know. FYI, these are the first wind turbines in France to have a concrete structure. Very aesthetic for my taste.

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by Christophe » 21/02/08, 23:05

I repeat myself but: 1 nuclear reactor = 1690 large wind turbines from 3MW

https://www.econologie.com/les-facteurs- ... -3271.html

How much are 1690 3MW wind turbines and how much does a nuclear reactor cost?

A modern wind turbine produces in 6 months the equivalent of the energy necessary for its entire construction. Find me a single installation of electric production which could compete.


Already this figure seems very low to me ("some rumors" saying that a wind turbine was never even profitable !!)

Otherwise I would not say but a nuclear reactor must be a few days ... see a few hours ... but must give it food :D
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