Injecting current on the contract without network?

[caricion]

We can see that storage is now profitable.

Hello,
this calculation does not take into account the cost of the PV installation itself, the additional cost of the additional installation of the batteries, and the differential between the purchase price and the sale price to EDF.
So not even with this calculation it is not profitable ...

And even in the event of a cut, it would only be profitable in the event of very frequent cuts or a very long cut ...

In the end, the goal is to supply the regulation of my solar water heater in order to guard against a power failure which would occur at the worst moment and would cause the panels to overheat.

It seems to me that the panels are able to withstand overheating even in the middle of summer (except for insane climate change ...) while they cannot cool by discharging current (the rise in T ° is relatively low there seems to me).


The goal is really to have power in the event of a big problem but above all to have the knowledge on what to do in this exceptional circumstance (for example to have the gear to be able to use old vehicle batteries ... .) or the inverter mods to inject even without a grid ...
the legal aspect is not important since for the next intervention of the type "we are at war" could well be accompanied by "Please if you have a PV installation inject on the network we need it ..." except that if we don't know what to do we won't get there

[Remundo]

At my level, I would therefore like to know how (possibly by placing myself illegally) in this type of exceptional circumstance while still injecting current into my home (and possibly into the network for the pleasure of my neighbors). Apparté: for the record, it is an offense to hide your face

the subject is very poorly worded.

your approach is not to "inject" current into your home, but to have a 220V alternating personal and independent backup network.

Do not hope to produce for the neighbors, even at full power, your injection inverter would probably have malfunctions (in summary it would not be able to support the nominal voltage of the network, which would put it outside its range operational output voltage).

I am interested in any idea allowing me to prepare for this type of situation

Have a good day

Well, you need a second UPS for an isolated site with a storage battery ...

or a "hybrid" inverter which knows how to juggle between an injection mode, a zero-injection mode and / or an isolated site mode.

it costs quite expensive (X000 €) ... I too asked myself this kind of questions ... in fact a generator of 2000-3000 W seems the best choice to avoid the cuts of the network. It is not expensive, and is easily moved. A generator is more like X00 €,

but now for new installations, the choice of a hybrid inverter seems a possible option, although I doubt the real financial interest of the system for the cuts.

On the other hand, the hybrid inverter is now useful for those who want to make self-consumption with a CACSI in France (in short, the inverter does everything to never inject into the EDF network and use all of the PV production, either in immediate domestic consumption or deferred via The batteries). And it is true that this system is less stupid than the classic injection inverters which are decanted if the network cuts and make impressive photovoltaic fields inoperative.

[caricion]

or a "hybrid" inverter which knows how to juggle between an injection mode, a zero-injection mode and / or an isolated site mode.

it costs quite expensive (X000 €) ... I too asked myself this kind of questions ... in fact a generator of 2000-3000 W seems the best choice to avoid the cuts of the network. It is not expensive, and is easily moved. A generator is more like X00 €,

Thank you for this answer, in my current configuration, my inverter is in a shed 50 m from my meters, I imagine that a domestic installation inverter link is also necessary in this case (which does not exist since basically we have: inverter, production counter, enedis mystery box, consumption counter.

As we are told that an inverter has a lifespan of 10 years and that mine has 7, it deserves to look into it ...

[Forhorse]

It seems to me that the panels are able to withstand overheating even in the middle of summer

They can, mine are given for 120 ° C, the fact remains that cooking the antifreeze inside is not a great idea (even if in theory it can also largely withstand these temperatures) and the overpressure generated in the system because of overheating is not always compensated by the expansion tank, which causes the opening of the safety valve and therefore the loss of coolant.
Last summer my CECI's balloon went up to 90 ° quite easily, so I think 120 ° is quickly reached if a power failure occurs at the worst time.
I already had the panels and batteries of an old stand-alone installation, I only needed the hybrid inverter (paid a little over 400 €) to ensure the security of supply of my CESI and my home automation server, I think the investment is minimal compared to the inconvenience it can avoid.

[caricion]

They can, mine are given for 120 ° C, the fact remains that cooking the antifreeze inside is not a great idea (even if in theory it can also largely withstand these temperatures) and the overpressure generated in the system because of overheating is not always compensated by the expansion tank, which causes the opening of the safety valve and therefore the loss of coolant.

Hello,

for me we are on a photovoltaic subject so I do not really understand ...

[Forhorse]

That's what reading diagonally ...
I said that I use a small semi-autonomous photovoltaic installation to power a solar water heater in order to guard against power outages which could be damaging if it occurs at the wrong time.

[ENERC]

We can see that storage is now profitable.

Hello,
this calculation does not take into account the cost of the PV installation itself, the additional cost of the additional installation of the batteries, and the differential between the purchase price and the sale price to EDF.
So not even with this calculation it is not profitable ...

This is true if you have the solar panels installed on your roof at a very expensive price, but if you install them yourself on the ground or on the roof, the calculation is different. Personally, I put it vertically on the ground to make a fence. I fixed them on cement poles made of PVC pipe diameter 80 in which I put scrap metal and concrete.
Take for example a complete kit with 10 panels of 320W and a battery of 5 kWh. You find the complete kit for 5300 €.
With the 10 panels, you will produce 3200 kWh per year in Brittany, and 3800 kWh in Toulouse. But let's stay with the case of Brittany. I put 10 panels because the French average is 4000 kWh per year. You have to adjust the kit well so as not to overproduce and lose in summer.

Over the first 10 years, production will be 32000 kWh.
You divide € 5300 by 32000 kWh, that gives you 16,5 ct per kWh, or the EDF price.
The battery would have theoretically done 7000 cycles - 32000 / (5 kWh * 90%).
But in fact not because you consume during the day and it does not go in the battery.
Reasonably, you will have done the 4500 cycles.

So after 10 years, you change the inverter and the batteries. You will put in the 2000 € for the battery and the inverter, because the prices will drop a little further.
Over the next 10 years your panels will have lost 5% of their power.
The cost over the next 10 years will be 2000 / (32000 * (100% -5%)) -> 6,6 € ct per kWh. It will be 4x cheaper than the EDF kWh.

Over the next 10 years you will stay within 6 cents of the kWh.
Then the same up to 40 years for panels.

Regarding CO2 emissions, Lithium batteries are in the 65kg of CO2 per kWh (2020 figures - not those of 2010 that we find in the bad press ).
The CO2 balance over 40 years will be: 4 (battery packs) x 5 (kWh per battery) x 65 kG of CO2 / 40 years / 3000 (kWh produced per year on average).
that gives 10g of CO2 per kWh.
You add 20 g of CO2 per kWh for the panels, and that makes a total of 30 g of CO2 / kWh. It is much less even than the French mix, however, with nuclear power.

If you have the installation done by a pro, you amortize this cost over time: 3 cents per kWh for 1000 € of installation every 10 years.

Conclusion:
- PV with storage is profitable over the long term
- it ultimately emits little CO2 per kWh (even if it pollutes a lot at the installation)
- but ... you have to be very patient. The initial investment is high.
- we are on a really long time ... 40 years. We must reason as for the insulation of buildings: an investment over several decades

[Eric DUPONT]

I think that the most interesting would be to pool the production over ten homes, to have a single energy storage system, with several photovoltaic power plants 10 times 5 kw for example and a wire that goes around the homes without go through the public domain. at this account it would be possible I think to be less expensive than the network.

[phil59]

Let's not forget the storage on wheels that are electric vehicles.

A very simple trick, a 12V 220V inverter on the accessory battery, and you draw 300-400W without tiring anything, even a few kW, taking the risk of burning the "400V" converter to 12V.

Currently the "EDF" price of 16 cts, ok, in 5 years, what price?

Mutualize, there may be an idea ... V2G and V2H are, I think, the solutions of the future ....

For thermal, there is also the PC inverter, sufficient to run a circulator .... I have an old 160W pc inverter, and my gas boiler, and 2 circulators run on it without pb ...

[ENERC]

I think that the most interesting would be to pool the production over ten homes, to have a single energy storage system, with several photovoltaic power plants 10 times 5 kw for example and a wire that goes around the homes without go through the public domain. at this account it would be possible I think to be less expensive than the network.

It's technically possible, but Enedis made it incredibly complicated (there was a Sicetaitsimple post about it on another topic with the document referenced).

The problem with pooling is that you have to find a legal person who contracts the contract on behalf of the participants in the operation. What about things that are not easy to manage, like the maintenance? what happens if an owner changes? and with tenants? how are the productions distributed?
I tested at the level of a building manager and the answer was: nobody is going to advance the money to be profitable in 10 years. [when the insulation is going to be done by force during the next facelift, they will understand ....]

On reflection, I see 3 tracks:
- citizen initiatives by a group of highly motivated people,
- mayors who develop eco-districts,
- building co-ops on condition of finding financing without advancing the money at the start

That said, the cost per W drops sharply from 0W to 6kW, then stabilizes up to 36KVA (the limit of three-phase 230V). Then, it is not super-interesting because it is necessary to pay the transformer in HTA (that socket).
I think that within 10 years, people who have enough surface area will install ~ 9kWp (2500 € of PV). Why? well because most of the cars will be electric with Vehicle2grid, as Phil59 rightly pointed out.
And with the ban on oil-fired boilers, then soon on gas, we are all going to switch to the CAP and therefore a higher installed PV power.
I could be wrong, but that's how I see it in the next 10 years.