electrical generator air turbine

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turbinair
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Registration: 08/06/14, 17:55

electrical generator air turbine




by turbinair » 08/06/14, 18:47

Hello everyone!
I am a little moved to enter your hemicycle ... It is that I am self-taught. I am currently refining an electric generator but the turbine is the 2nd most important part ... and this is an area reserved for its initiates! So, I defer to you.
This turbine is of the radial type. It has a total mass of around 350 kg. Its diameter is 700 cm and its height (or that of its blades) of 70 cm. Its carcass is pierced with 12 lateral openings, rectangular in shape of 60 cm X 30 cm side, representing the air intake orifices, and an axial opening of 350 cm in diameter allowing the evacuation of this air .
It will be injected through these lateral openings with an amount of air with a volume of 3 m3 per second (approximately 250.000 cm3 for each orifice).
I would like to obtain with this machine a couple of forces high enough to drive a dynamo of rather powerful capacity.
What then should be its characteristics?
1-The number of its blades.
2-The profile of its blades (I plan to build them all on a standard template according to a scale diagram).
3-For the data presented, is it Ok? Do they have to undergo modifications? Which ones?
Just for illustration here is my diagram:
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Ahmed
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by Ahmed » 08/06/14, 20:55

Far from me the idea of ​​taking myself for an "initiate", but your device seems to me oddly arranged: the air arrives radially to then exert a dynamic effect on tangential blades ... would it not have been more logical that the inlets themselves were oriented obliquely in the direction of the blades, in order to reduce friction losses?

So what is your source of air?
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by Remundo » 08/06/14, 23:05

Hi Turbinair,

Would you not be reconverting a Francis turbine hydraulic with compressed air?

To tell the truth, I don't know what it can give ... the densities and the velocities / viscosities and pressures are beforehand very different ...

In any case it seems to me that your blades are badly oriented on the diagram.

Air or water, it should work like that in principle:
Image

Several fixed blades diffuse the fluid in centripetal radial directions. Then the fluid is discharged axially at lower pressure and speed.

Often the "fixed" blades are tilted to regulate the power of the turbine.

Microhydropower source
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turbinair
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by turbinair » 10/06/14, 18:16

Ahmed wrote:Far from me the idea of ​​taking myself for an "initiate", but your device seems to me oddly arranged: the air arrives radially to then exert a dynamic effect on tangential blades ... would it not have been more logical that the inlets themselves were oriented obliquely in the direction of the blades, in order to reduce friction losses?

So what is your source of air?

Hello, Ahmed!
I have noted with interest your positive remarks! I admit that this diagram is only a sketch dictated a bit by the configuration of an installation releasing air at several points at a fairly high temperature (40-50 ° C) that I intend to recover (above all for its experimental value) after filtration and standardization of flow rates.
You know, at the very beginning of the diagram, I drew plan vanes, then, as if to reduce my ignorance in this area, I bent the profile. Thus, and for what this pencil stroke influenced your intervention, I would also like to recall that these chosen dimensions were inspired by a certain adaptation of the configurations present. I know that in layman, I had to reduce the dimensions of this machine at least by half, but it was a certain desire to decide on the viability of the project in its "real dimensions" which prevailed ... And it is this same "realism" that dictated the rudimentary forms of this prototype to me.
Thank you Ahmed!
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turbinair
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by turbinair » 10/06/14, 18:17

Remundo wrote:Hi Turbinair,

Would you not be reconverting a Francis turbine hydraulic with compressed air?

To tell the truth, I don't know what it can give ... the densities and the velocities / viscosities and pressures are beforehand very different ...

In any case it seems to me that your blades are badly oriented on the diagram.

Air or water, it should work like that in principle:
Image

Several fixed blades diffuse the fluid in centripetal radial directions. Then the fluid is discharged axially at lower pressure and speed.

Often the "fixed" blades are tilted to regulate the power of the turbine.

Microhydropower source

Hello, Remundo!
There is no doubt that if I had only one source of air production, it is for this configuration (Turbine Francis) that I would have opted to sketch this machine. And it is, undoubtedly, this same logic imposed by the shape of the blades of my diagram which made our friend Ahmed opt for oblique air inlets which would have generated optimum performance.
Finally, one has the impression that the approach tends to be oriented towards a confrontation of "oblique-orthogonal" options ... Will it give better results? ...
It should be noted that it is this adaptation of the Francis turbine, which you notice with so much insight, that would have imposed the case of the existence of a single source of air blowing ... under high pressure.
The low air flow and the need not to obstruct its flow leaves me feeling that the exhaust orifice will have to be wide enough, on the one hand, and that the blades oppose as little resistance as possible (hence my starting option for almost planar blades) on the other hand, while providing for a multiplication of their number to remedy a certain weakness of the impact of the current generated by this configuration.
Is my approach rational? You will notice that I try to adapt constraints and logic.
Thanks to you Remundo!
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by Remundo » 10/06/14, 18:37

Hi Turbinair,

To increase the yield, it is necessary to try to obtain a half-turn in the reference frame of the bucket / moving blade.

In practice, we do not arrive at a complete U-turn, except in the case of an ideal Pelton.

Francis are also quite special because they have combined pressure and centrifugal effects, in addition to playing on the kinetics of the fluid.

You can also take inspiration from Turgo turbine to get an idea of ​​the right angles between the movable blades and your multiple air jets.
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turbinair
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by turbinair » 12/06/14, 17:33

Remundo wrote:Hi Turbinair,

To increase the yield, it is necessary to try to obtain a half-turn in the reference frame of the bucket / moving blade.

In practice, we do not arrive at a complete U-turn, except in the case of an ideal Pelton.

Francis are also quite special because they have combined pressure and centrifugal effects, in addition to playing on the kinetics of the fluid.

You can also take inspiration from Turgo turbine to get an idea of ​​the right angles between the movable blades and your multiple air jets.

Hello Remundo!
An application of the principles on which the Francis, Pelton or Turgo turbines were built seems to me so complex and tedious that I should convert myself to a turbinist ... and abandon my project which only required this kind of machine incidentally. And for me who likes challenges the enormity of this pitfall only makes me more and more tempted! Should I abandon my power station which seems so close to me for a universe already invested by a real elite of Mechanics? Remundo, I wouldn't go that far yet.
Is my turbine as presented and the conditions under which it is called to operate so basic as to give this machine only the air of a wind turbine too simple to claim some genius? Yet it is the heart of a particularly innovative installation (I leave the adjective Revolutionary for situations where all improvements and evolution are no longer possible)! Of course, I do not pretend to provide a solution to these huge wind turbines denounced by the residents of these Swiss cantons where the situation seems to take the turn of a precedent ...
The manufacture of this machine in its final (ideal) configuration based on an application of the principles on which the large reference turbines Francis, Pelton, Turgo and others were built is not my objective for the moment. During this confirmation phase of my theses, the entire installation is concerned. The imperative of economy in the progression of the reflection thus imposes itself by its quality of coordination. All the improvements that may one day be produced must lead to the materialization of this entire project. And if one day you and I persist in giving life to this project, we will not risk being alone. There is room for many other specialists as well!
For now, I want to build a turbine whose folded sheet blades sandwiched between a circle and a sheet metal ring will also be entrained by a continuous stream of air coming from multiple radial arrivals - I am trying to control that I can reach a volume of up to 4 m3 / s. However, I know that it is these details that I hide under the rudimentary of the current phase that the whole project depends on! ...
Remundo, even more light please ... Thank you and all those who will not resist the temptation!
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by Remundo » 13/06/14, 12:21

Hi Turbinair,

Bé moi, if you want, I tell you how to orient your flows compared to the blades to obtain a better power ...

These rules, these laws of physics, both theoretical and practical, observed by physicists, exploited / readjusted by engineers then observed by field technicians, following trial and error ...

Now, that doesn't take anything away from your device which seems mysterious and much more global, because if I understand correctly, the "air turbine" would be only one technical element among others in a kind of larger "machinery" .
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by chatelot16 » 13/06/14, 15:35

before starting to draw you must have the data useful

you already gave the flow, it lacks the pressure

at very low pressure the right solution is of the propeller type

at higher pressure we prefer a centrifugal turbine, such as a turbocharger
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turbinair
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by turbinair » 16/06/14, 19:28

No, there is nothing mysterious about my installation! Remundo, I may have failed in terms of communication (especially technical!) For having only offered participation with its rotating machine. This turbine of which I sketched the desired characteristics according to certain "imperatives": 1) Its general configuration to simplify its construction as much as possible ... given the technical and financial means (both limited) that I could commit; 2) The specific environment in which it will be operated; 3) An Installation intended to inject (or blow) hot air and to the concretization of which I work. Something for everyone (architectural design in short) unlike this rotating machine that could only be developed by specialists (engineers, technicians, and physicists ...) and whose radiant configuration I have designed for to prevent any jerking of the flow of hot air which I intend to gather first in a terminal of concentric anal form located all around the turbine and of which I have delivered in my diagram only the 12 adductions. Our friend Chatelot 16 was also apparently embarrassed by my approach based on the projection around restrictive data. Do I write badly? ... I don't know. I think I will have to publish a whole sketch to better support my explanations. Good Brazilian trips while waiting! Turbinair
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