Stirling engines wood pellets or granules + cogeneration

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 04/11/12, 12:13

the problem is that you need a house next to a high voltage line ... seeing their drawing
http://www.chaudiere-granules-cogeneration.fr/
more seriously it is a normal boiler at 110 ° C which heats a steam engine with heat pump fluid which works between this 110 ° C and the 55 ° C of the radiators: one can only hope for a fairly limited output for something very complicated
http://www.chaudiere-granules-cogenerat ... ffage.html
as long as you make a steam engine you have to do it with water and operate the boiler at the maximum temperature: 200 or 250 ° C with an ordinary steel boiler ... or more with a super steel

I did not manage to find any information on the electric power produced
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by Alain G » 04/11/12, 12:46

chatelot16 wrote:the problem is that you need a house next to a high voltage line ... seeing their drawing
http://www.chaudiere-granules-cogeneration.fr/
more seriously it is a normal boiler at 110 ° C which heats a steam engine with heat pump fluid which works between this 110 ° C and the 55 ° C of the radiators: one can only hope for a fairly limited output for something very complicated
http://www.chaudiere-granules-cogenerat ... ffage.html
as long as you make a steam engine you have to do it with water and operate the boiler at the maximum temperature: 200 or 250 ° C with an ordinary steel boiler ... or more with a super steel

I did not manage to find any information on the electric power produced



Chatelot Hi!


With a heat transfer fluid the advantage is a lower operating temperature than with water which means less loss of calories in the chimney, it still leaves a fairly high temperature for domestic hot water and ample for heating.


I find the concept interesting but it is vague when the electrical efficiency of the device, are we talking about 40 kw of electrical output capacity or the total capacity including heating?
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by chatelot16 » 04/11/12, 12:59

I only saw the total efficiency ... and the nominal power seems to be thermal power ... no indication of electric power

of course on a simple steam boiler at 250 ° C will let more heat go away than a boiler at 110 ° C, but the solutions have existed for a long time in the industry at the time of steam engines: the smoke outlet from the main boiler goes through an economizer which preheats the water which fills the boiler ... and another heat recuperator which preheats the air which goes to the hearth ... we can bring out the smoke completely cold ... in general we limited this recovery so that the smoke stays hot enough to soar into the sky

we no longer counted on the chimney draft: it was known that it was better to recover the maximum amount of heat to improve performance, and that a mechanical fan consumed less energy than what we would have lost with a smoke hot enough to make a sufficient draft without a fan
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by chatelot16 » 04/11/12, 13:18

if there are some who are interested in a real high efficiency steam boiler, it is also part of my project: it would not be a cogeneration boiler containing everything in a square tin box: it would be a reduced model of babcok and wilcox boiler and separate elements to put next to it: piston steam engine, condenser, heat recovery unit ...

the return to electricity will be at least 25%, and truly autonomous electricity production! not the defect of all current cogeneration boilers that necessarily need the network to operate

big advantage of the steam engine on the stirling: big peak power always available: for example with a fire under the boiler allowing to make 1kW electric continuously, it is always possible to instantly make 10kW to start a device connected to the alternator ... well on these 10KW can not be produced longtemeps if not cooled the boiler ... it is necessary to increase the fire if the power must increase durably

there are lots of people who make a reduced model of steam locomotive ... alas it is bad model because the locomotives were made to be light, without hope of great output, and in reduced model the outputs are even more bad than real ... I studied a triple expansion steam engine optimized for this small dimension

are there enough people interested in going into manufacturing?
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by dedeleco » 04/11/12, 14:08

Pretty very serious, useful project, in addition as good on cylindrical or circular solar parables, with a better output than photovoltaics, and which moreover by storing the heat under the free ground makes it possible to produce electricity 24 hours a day and even 24 days a year, in total solar autonomy or with wood !!

The realization of a modern high-performance boiler, greatly exceeds my personal mechanical skills, especially that the pressurized steam made beautiful memorable explosions in the 1800s !!!
However, I can do simple mechanical strength calculations.

Drilling by tinkering small deep holes to store some of the summer heat wasted at home, testing very simple, seems much more accessible to me, if I find the 20mm drill extensions (used by Uretek) or if I design a micro taupe boring robot 2 to 5 cm in diameter, already very difficult with compressed air, for me.

In addition the fact that it is misunderstood and criticized, motivates me, given the importance and simplicity accessible with a simple perforator and cheap pipes.

On the other hand, the circulation of water does not consume a lot of energy, because the pressure drops in a pipe vary as the power of the diameter, and therefore by increasing the diameter a little we consume much less power pumping (doubling the diameter divides this power by 5), and therefore this criticism is not a dramatic objection.
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by cortejuan » 04/11/12, 16:02

Hello,

thank you all for updating the thread and the info provided. If I understood correctly, the product of novotek is cogeneration by steam engine? What is surprising is that the production of electricity is not indicated. In any case, I did not see her.

On the stirling-steam engine comparison, isn't the efficiency of the second lower? In addition, what about the noise level and the risk of a device using a pressurized gas?

In any case it is really interesting.

cordially
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by chatelot16 » 04/11/12, 17:18

we cannot say that the output of the stirling is superior to the steam engine: it is thermal machine and the maximum possible yield is determined by the yield of the carnot cycle

the steam engine is limited in temperature by water vapor, which destroys the steel above a certain temperature

the stirling working with a gas, can work with a neutral gas, at very high temperature, therefore expect high efficiency

but at medium temperature where steam works well steam is the best solution

the machine of the previous link is worse: it is a steam engine, but not water vapor: refrigerant like a heat pump

I find that it is a bad solution because operating at too low temperature therefore poor performance ... and that is why they do not boast

I wouldn't be happy if they used a scroll compressor like the heat pump, modified to be able to be used in a turbine

the scroll principle was invented and patented a long time ago to make a steam engine ... but never realized because too difficult at the time
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by chatelot16 » 04/11/12, 17:27

I thought I had an original idea when I wanted to use a scroll compressor as a turbine but it was invented a long time ago
http://www.google.com/patents/US801182? ... 82&f=false
http://forums.futura-sciences.com/techn ... oteur.html
http://forums.futura-sciences.com/techn ... r-2-a.html

at that time the forum futura science technology worked well ... now they close everything that is interesting
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by dedeleco » 04/11/12, 18:05

very interesting and informative!

chatelot16 wrote:I thought I had an original idea when I wanted to use a scroll compressor as a turbine but it was invented a long time ago
http://www.google.com/patents/US801182? ... 82&f=false
http://forums.futura-sciences.com/techn ... oteur.html
http://forums.futura-sciences.com/techn ... r-2-a.html

at that time the forum futura science technology worked well ... now they close everything that is interesting


Wikipedia sums up 150 years of intense work with an armada of patents:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compresseur_m%C3%A9canique

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_compressor

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ls1cAAAAEBAJ&dq=801182

difficult to do better while remaining much simpler for efficient engines !!!

And the thermoacoustic Stirlings, without newer moving parts, some with good performance, seem to me more accessible as mechanical (wear-free!).

Drilling small holes seems to me much more accessible and simple, because too neglected, even despised, to keep the excess summer heat, in the land free for winter, or from day to night, without immense complications, for a perpetual result, without CO2 or pollution.


Type G compressor

The history of the G or scroll compressor begins with the XXth century, invented in principle in 1905 by the French Leon Creux, and patented in the United States on October 3 of the same year. At the time it was technically impossible to build it. It was in the mid-1980s that Volkswagen decided to give the G compressor a chance on the Polo G40 phase 2 models, and the Polo G40 phase 3, Corrado G60 and Golf II G60 and Rallye and Passat G60.

The qualifier G comes from the particular shape of the compressor and the spirals which recalls this letter, as for 40 or 60, they provide information on the width of the spiral. In reality the G60 should be called G59.5, since the spiral is only 59,5 mm wide (instead of 60).

The compressor consists of two fixed spirals and two mobile spirals. It is driven by the pulley of a crankshaft. In the rest of the text, we focus on one couple, the same explanations being correct for the other couple, mutatis mutandis.

After the air filter, the air enters the compressor by being “sucked in” between the two spirals (one fixed, the other mobile). Thanks to an eccentric shaft, the movable spiral approaches and moves away from the fixed spiral, the trapped air is compressed in this space and is expelled towards the center of the compressor (outlet), then towards the engine intake duct . Since this stage is repeated four times (four pairs of spirals), with a 180 ° offset, there is no drop in pressure between the arrival of the compressed air pockets at the intake.

There is, in general, a pressure of the order of 0,7 bar for the G60 with a power of 160 hp for 1,8 liters of displacement.

This type of compressor is also used in industry to compress air to 8 or even 10 bars. The compression chamber is not lubricated, which allows the delivery of completely oil-free air.
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