Build its own hydraulic unit

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CYRILR
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Registration: 01/01/07, 18:00
Location: Quebec

Build its own hydraulic unit




by CYRILR » 02/01/07, 19:11

Hello,

I am new to this forum. I have been working for some time already on a project for a personal hydraulic power station.
I told myself that I should not be the only one to meditate / work on such a project. I have already found a lot of information about the return to service of old electric mills but I have not found anything on projects of new installations except some achievements of very small powers made in developing countries.

I hope that this message will also be able to gather all the necessary information for such projects and that it can give ideas to others.
Some utopias of today are only the reality of tomorrow

Here are some features of my project project.
Location: Montmorency River Valley, Sainte-Brigitte-de-Laval, Quebec.
Gradient of the ground: 50 meters
Elevation of the 14 River meters of which +/- 7 meters exploitable
Lot Size: 25 ha
Flow at low water level: 40 m3 / s but can rise to
300 m3 / s in less than 10 hours
Estimated energy requirements: +/- 7 kw

Troubles :
I have a budget of +/- 10 000 can $
The water intake is in a boxed area of ​​+/- 5 meters devoid of access. So forget the simple gravity without blasting so $$$
Ice and snow guaranteed at least 6 months a year.
I only have 2 arm
It must be all operational for mi 2007

Small joys:
I have a budget of 10 000 can $
I have a lot of wood at my disposal.
I have even 2 arm and some friends
I also have a hell of a mule head
I have full time availability to do everything.

There is also a house to build.
No intention to sell electricity but I want to be able to enlarge the project in a few years if our children decide to build next to Dad and Mom

So that's it. Info, ideas, rants, advice, comments, return experience welcome.


A+

CYRIL
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Exceed
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by Exceed » 02/01/07, 19:39

Hello galenian colleague ....

What exactly are you looking for?

Do you want to be 100% autonomous?
Have you already made the choice of the technology that you will use (asynchronous or synchronous)?
Regarding the cold, it is necessary to bury the pipe if you want to be able to produce in cold season, to see all the year .... the depth of burial will depend on the climate ....
My idea (advice), it would be to opt like me for production with asynchronous motor with a load control. The load resistors could help you warm the room where the gene .... Finally, there are other options but saw your means, will have to play tight!

I'll put you some links ...

http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index ... &PgId=1327
http://membres.lycos.fr/kromm/asynchrone.html
http://microhydropower.net/mhp_group/po ... _main.html
http://www-edu.gme.usherb.ca/~eaumaniterre/Signets.htm

The post about me ...
https://www.econologie.com/forums/produire-s ... t1337.html

A + Serge.
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CYRILR
I learn econologic
I learn econologic
posts: 23
Registration: 01/01/07, 18:00
Location: Quebec




by CYRILR » 03/01/07, 03:55

Hello Serge and thank you for the answer,

What I seek as infos is vast but it touches especially:
- help with the conceptual aspects related to the terrain configuration. (I will try to write in a little more detail the physical, administrative and environmental constraints of the project)
- Help on the technical aspects (I am quite a lot of neophyte in electricity) I have good friends but sometimes it's not enough : Cheesy: )
- experience feedback in the construction of this kind of project
- and all that can pass in the head of the reader of this tread and which will be useful for me or for others.

For autonomy, It's a yes. In the long run, I am aiming for the 100% but I am willing to compromise during the production phase.

Synchronous or asynchronous technology
I do not know at all. Here is the perfect example of a question that I tried to solve but that I have not yet solved for lack of technical and practical knowledge. I do not want to have to renew my domestic engine fleet to adapt to an unconventional power source.
Here we turn on 110v / 60 cycles. Here, it is also customary to work with 220v for heating, hot water, drying clothes and cooking food. In my case, we forget the 220v because I will settle with energy alternatives for all these items (focus of mass, solar and gas for food).
That's why the answer is: I do not know
Question: Is this choice of technology reversible and, if so, does this reversibility have practical and financial consequences that make change feasible but unrealistic?

For the cold
There, we put our feet in a constraint and it gets complicated. I have an environmental standard to follow. Not allowed to construct or touch anything over a distance of 50 m from the edge of the river. So in theory, no concreting, burning, digging that could affect the shoreline of 50 m. In practice, there is tolerance but not much. So you have to think light, from the river to the penstock. Currently, I simulate the option of 2 plastic pipes of different diameters nested and provided with a layer of insulation between the 2. Must be filed, removable if contestation and as much as possible discreetly visually.

I also have a bone stuck in my teeth: the topographic situation of the water intake. The location of the water intake is cashed +/- 5 meters. No road to get there so no machinery. Must cook a realistic solution to elbow juice, human or animal at a pinch. On the other hand, no need for a sand blaster, the place is a pit in a river bend with very little counter-current. Better than nothing.
Because of that, I'm building solutions by capitalizing on the conditions of the field rather than trying to fight with it.
So, I scratch myself up in a pond pumping water with a hydraulic ram or a mechanical pump that would take its strength in the current and make the penstock forced to the bottom. I have a maximum of 50 usable meters. It should settle a number of things noticeably at the level of charge regulation, right?

In the coming days, I will try to make some pictures of the site of implantation to facilitate understanding.

Questions:
Why asynchronous (I am bad at electricity, really nil : Cheesy: )
Charge regulation, what does it mean physically? A machine like transformer, an automatic valve? From what I could vaguely understand on your tread, it seems to be a bad toothache.

The options I am always prenneur. A priori, I do not create myself prohibited, I prefer to solve the problems if necessary

I like your links, many that I did not have :D

A+

CYRIL

PS: sorry for the mistakes, I correct the ones that I can find but I am more skilled with a hammer :?
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Other
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by Other » 03/01/07, 07:21

Hello
I know a guy on the river St Maurice at the top of Shanwinigan who has a similar syteme, but he walks in DC
Bad practice it is better to find you a generator
In Drumonville there is something for farmers to put a PTO
it supplies 220 volts and 110 v 60hz it runs at 1800 rpm
Inform yourself at Drumond generator. along the 20
For the turbine what are you going to use? a city water pump
centrifugal turbine? possibly you will need to put a transmition to increase the rpm of the turbine to have the 1800 rpm to the alternator.
Searching the boat guys there are sometimes beautiful alternators of 10kw
For the intake of ice and the frosie on the gates of entry poses problem particularly in March when the ice melts and that the temperature of the water changes
it's a big project all depends on the power you are considering
it is far from the Mont Morency Falls?
If you are far from the hydro and you do not have access to the network you need an alternator if you leave with the option assynchro it's a simple electric motor that you plug into the network and you run more as fast as his speed, but you are not autonomous and you risk to have emerdes with the guy of hydro! Inform yourself through an intermediary in case you decide to do as you please. because you're going to turn the counter upside down and she does not like that, the little lady who comes up
In your place I would choose an alternator from 5 kw there are all 220 volts and 2 x 110volts, just have a control valve on the water flow to maintain the approximate speed of 55hz has 65 hz or you t 'organizes to have a constant charge more adjustment.

Andre
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Exceed
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by Exceed » 03/01/07, 17:23

Hello,

What I tell you is only the result of a year of research ... concerning the use of an asynchronous generator.

The main difference between synchronous and asynchronous .... apart from technology is the price and reliability!
Since you are limited on your budget .... it is better to leave on econically interesting solutions.
I am in the same case as you ... worse but I already have the turbine ... and a turbine is not a gift!
Everyone or almost, will tell you in an isolated site, not connected to the network, you need a synchronous generator as an alternator .... in France, I will say that it is almost 100% of the cases ... except that me, being "tight" .... no, I'm kidding! But near my pennies, I did a lot of research on alternative solutions because, doing like everyone else, you have to start with a sum of € 1500 per Kw produced ... if you want 10Kw ... that's 15000 € !!!!!!!! It is sure that it will work but at what price !!!
Not to mention the necessary maintenance of synchronous generators .... there are times, I wonder if it is not made to spend the desire to invest in people in hydroelectric production ....: Evil:
The technology I intend to use is used in underdeveloped countries where budgets are very tight ... I do not know if you see where I want to go ....
The use of the asynchronous motor mounted generator is possible even on isolated site! that, you'll have to convince yourself if you do not want to ruin yourself !!!!
The principle is very simple ... you operate in constant flow (of water) so as to be able to provide the maximum power that you have chosen to produce ... Example 10Kw ... if you do not use all this energy, a charge controller switches via an electronic circuit on resistors, the unused energy. it looks like waste but it's clean and free energy!
So that your asynchronous motor can provide energy, without connection to the network, it must be connected to a capacitor bank, a charge controller (or IGC), resistance of load shedding (style washing machine resistors)! That's all ... no special winnowing except to close the water supply (safety and maintenance) ....
At the economic level :
- An asynchronous motor is very easily used or new (cheaper than a synchronous motor).
- Capacitors found in industrial cabinets. (values ​​to be calculated as needed)
- the charge regulator (link humbird.zip) is worth while making it is even in 150 $ .... I still miss info because I can not translate the file of manufacture ... on sale , in the 900 $ .... : Shock:
- resistances .... some $ each !!!

Here....

Why:
Apart from the price ....
Industrial asynchronous motor much more reliable and maintenance-free (except the bearings ... in general, 100000 hours!)
Capacitors ... no maintenance!
The regulator ... normally very reliable if manufactured well .... very fast reactivity ... very good regulation of the voltage ... etc! Disadvantage ... the electronics for those who do not master or who do not speak English (like me).
Resistances ... no maintenance !!! They must be placed in a water bath or other in order to avoid cooling them.

But all this is only my opinion and I think many people will tell you the opposite .... a pity that this technology is not more plebicity in terms of autonomous production .... : Cry:

As for the implantation of your penstock ... it's going to be up to you ... it does not look simple but you have to take your time to anticipate problems ... there is almost always a solution!

I remind you that to calculate your available hydraulic power, the formula is:
P (hyd) = height of fall (in m) x flow (in m3 / s) x 9.81

If you want to have some margin and be in the right, I calculate using 6.5 instead of 9.81 .... I'll give you an example:
- Let's say you have:
height of fall = 7m
rate = 600L / s or 0.6m3 / s

you have :

P (hyd) = 7 x 0.6 x 9.81 = 41.2 Kw (hydraulic mechanical power)

With my aproximative formula, you get:

P = 7 x 0.6 x 6.5 = 27.3Kw This figure corresponds to the power produced usable !!!

Of course, this is just an example ....

In your case, you will have to go backwards.
You want to be able to use 7 kw, you also want to have the possibility of increasing this production in the event that "people" come to settle near you ....
You need to know exactly the height of fall. This height, in the case of a penstock, is located at the water intake and the discharge level at the turbine outlet (leakage channel).
You will have some calculations to do to determine the diameter of your pipe or your pipes ... with the formula Q (flow) = S (section) x V (speed) ...
Let's say that you need to produce 15Kw maximum (7 or 8 for you, the rest for whom you want) ...
You take my formula upside down to calculate the maximum flow that you need .... you am ....
So you want 15kw = 6.5 x Qmax x your fall height (let's take 7m)
So Qmax = 15: (6.5 x 7) = 0.33 m3 / s And that's it ... simple as hello !!!!
Shit, you still have to calculate the diameter of your pipe .....
How do we do ?
We do not know the speed .... others will explain how to calculate it but you will not be far from 1m / s .... believe me!
So to get the section S:
you do S = Q: V = 0.33: 1 = 0.33 m² You are me tjs ???

Now, you just have to demerder for the water intake and driving ... will have to take out the shovel if you can not bury it, and cover it with a good pile of humus for keep it warm .... an idea like that ... or manure !!!! Maybe it's better if you do not want a neighbor ... : Lol:

I do not know where I am ... Oh yes, my formula takes into account the losses of charge Etc.

You also have the choice of the turbine .... so compared to your characteristics ... it will not be a pelton ... I certainly see a small kaplan or a crossflow or francis .... as me! !!

A + And above all, stay warm !!!

Serge.
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Other
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by Other » 03/01/07, 18:00

Hello Exceed

It interests me to know the assychronous generator with capacitors or are they connected? and what is the excitement of dépard?
We have the 75 diesel engine hp it misses the generator!

Normally single-phase motors have a choke coil with a capacitor permanently on the winding is that what you're talking about?
The problem when you look for a medium-sized 10kw assychronous motor, here it's almost exclusively triphase and in 550volts
to make a generator that responds to the American custom it is one-phase 2 windings serie 110vots = 220vots, it can be used on domestic without changing anything.
the other method is to take a three-phase 220 volt assychronous motor and use a phase to exite it with current sector or an inverter, but I will not advance on it I have to do tests ..
Because I am also looking for a powerful generator 30kw
in an asynchronous motor easy to find,
For an alternator of 5 has 7 kw it is, not too expensive
in ocassion.
This week I'm going to get a generator with a diesel 2 cylinders just for my experiments panton a test bench
I'm going to learn more about auto more need to do 400km
directly in my garage! (Voltage and amperage is accurate)
hoping it's not too noisy ..

Andre
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Exceed
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by Exceed » 03/01/07, 18:31

edit.
Last edited by Exceed the 03 / 01 / 07, 18: 45, 1 edited once.
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Exceed
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Location: Thailand




by Exceed » 03/01/07, 18:39

Hi André,

It is actually on a three-phase motor .... depending on the voltage, it will or not, use a transformer ...
It must be said that I speak well of production in isolated site, thus without existing network connection.
It's the capacitors that serve for excitement ... For the details, I'm not technical enough to explain it. I'd have to do some research to explain it to you without error.
[img] Someone has tried for me, on tri 400v engines and the guy hangs super well and does not pick up so to speak ...

Some pictures that deal with the subject and tests that we did for me ... Thank you Denis!

Image

another possibility of connection that we have not yet test ...

Image

The addition of capacitors in series makes it possible to maintain, even in case of unbalanced load, a constant voltage across the generatrix.

It is also possible to produce single-phase with a three-phase motor with a C-2C mount ... I need to find the info, if you're interested ... it will certainly be the solution I'm going to use to avoid me redo all my electrical circuit ...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Mounting in sorting ....

Image

Mono mounting.

Image
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by Other » 03/01/07, 19:26

Hello,
thank you for the information
I will do some tests to find the good value of the condesateurs who normally have a tolerance mini to respect
The principle of passing the load through the condesator in the assembly No 2 not very livable with a big machine
rather, try to balance the load on the 3 phases.
For single-phase use, leave a phase for the regultion with charge
These kind of engine I have 2 under the hands a Toshiba of 10hp
220 / 440 triphase 1750rpm 60 hz and another GE 15 hp 3600 rpm also 220 / 440 the one live on a diesel could be interesting
at 3550 rpm the engine is in all its power and in its torque!
But I will test with a small single phase, before embarking on this big assembly!
My little panton mount has a 0,5 hp engine to start it up I'm going to put him condesateurs to see what he can debit, I'll be able to eliminate my generator DC charging

Andre
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Exceed
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by Exceed » 03/01/07, 19:41

Re,

I just read again .... it's OK !!!
I did not say much about bullshit .... : Lol: : Lol: : Lol:

By the way, the information on standalone production on isolated site is rare .... it's not everyone who wants to make $$$!

A + Serge.

PS: If anyone knows people or links to isolated autonomous productions without connection to the network...do not hesitate....
Thank you
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