France, mobilization for the climate

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Re: France, mobilization for the climate




by sicetaitsimple » 22/09/19, 19:16

Ahmed wrote:It is sometimes necessary to exaggerate, if only by pedagogy! :D
Of course, I also agree with the sentence ofEclectron, restriction made false good ideas. What I fear is that these possible restrictions put me in a category too rigorous. All that remains to get the limit to the right place ...


There can be false good ideas, that's for sure. Generally they do not stand up very long to the test of facts.

"Too strict", it's possible ... I don't really believe in the world "big night", but telling you that is certainly not a scoop! :)
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Re: France, mobilization for the climate




by GuyGadebois » 22/09/19, 19:43

Remundo wrote:a little bit of google ...

I did not say that there were no commercial areas in Germany ... However when we walk, we realize that they are human face and much less numerous and gigantic than in France. They are also often attached to industrial zones where rail supplies them. In short, once again nothing to do with our country disfigured.
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Re: France, mobilization for the climate




by Ahmed » 22/09/19, 19:46

Indeed, Sicetaitsimple, the "big night" worldwide seems much less likely than the gloomy mornings ... : Wink:
False good ideas can cause quite a lot of damage before disappearing ... especially since they can also last a long time, because the false good ideas of some can constitute opportunities for the others.
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Re: France, mobilization for the climate




by GuyGadebois » 22/09/19, 19:50

Ahmed wrote:Indeed, Sicetaitsimple, the "big night" worldwide seems much less likely than the gloomy mornings ... : Wink:
False good ideas can cause quite a lot of damage before disappearing ... especially since they can also last a long time, because the false good ideas of some can constitute opportunities for the others.

Could you name some "false good ideas"?
I have one obvious: The electric car.
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Re: France, mobilization for the climate




by eclectron » 23/09/19, 11:16

Ahmed wrote:I dare to hope that you do not impute to me that kind of thing? : Wink:

A little bit anyway : Wink:although you have all my sympathy.
This is the speech I pin, not the man, even if the man is often attached to his speech and may feel hurt. Sorry.

I responded with some violence, in reaction to the violence felt by reading this remark "Probably is it because cognitive dissonance is more widespread in Germany? Clearly, wanting to get rid of the consequences via a Papa-State intervention, without renouncing the causes ... "
I know that it starts from a good background, since I think that you want to set the record straight on the impact of such an event, to show the contradiction that persists and undoubtedly show your disappointment that it advances not at the right pace, nor at the right scale, towards a healthy and sustainable world,.
In the absolute and at the moment t, it is true that a gathering will not change the face of the world.
Except that, to bring back (unceasingly ..) to the cold and factual reality, you undermine the enthusiasm that could arise from such an event, in you and others who read you. (which I hope few! : Lol: but you warned with your signature, so it's okay : Wink: )
We can not predict the impact of such an event in the long term, on those who mobilized, on those who attended, on those who are on a tipping point.
An impetus that could last and amplify to go towards what you, us, would seem a real advance.
Somewhere you put a ball to the feet before the departure of an 100m.
Where is the enthusiasm of youth ???
I think you neglect the power of intention.

In fact what turns me off is the reason, when it undermines the aspiration to truly live better. This goes for a defeatist discourse, as for a cynical (often liberal) speech.
In 2 cases there is acceptance or resignation to the established order and the reason to find a lot of arguments justifying the established order. (We always find ...)
It lacks the spirit of revolt against the established order, it lacks the aspiration to change, to build a better world, or at least to encourage it.
Your reactions make me think of the teachers of my childhood, essentially to focus on what was wrong, rather than what was going on. It does not give confidence to continue afterwards.

As for the perfect world, I believe it possible. It would be a peaceful, healthy and sustainable economic system, providing everyone with their primary needs (cf Maslow), while respecting nature as much as possible (branch on which we sit)
Since this system is not based on competition for survival, society would already be less violent, say, would not cultivate it. Capitalism cultivates violence but we do not realize it so much, we bathe in it. The cynic will say "we have not found better" : Mrgreen:
In fact, we did not seek. : roll:
This "ideal" system would not bring happiness because it is an intimate question to everyone.
No system can control the inside of an individual (and it is not desirable) but the system in which we live, influences our mind and vice versa.
A more peaceful "economic framework" would no doubt allow everyone to be more in peace.
From today we can, we have the right : Mrgreen: , to be in inner peace but one must be an exceptional person to achieve it, like Buddha.
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whatever.
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Re: France, mobilization for the climate




by Grelinette » 23/09/19, 14:02

In any case, we can note the effectiveness of the few events confused and disorganized for the climate which occurred at the 4 corners of France: while the government announced earlier this week that 80 departments were on red alert for the drought, just after the demonstrations on the weekend we had an extremely rainy weekend.
If it's not effective that! :P
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Re: France, mobilization for the climate




by Ahmed » 23/09/19, 21:00

GuyGadebois, I call "false good idea" any idea supposed to be a break from the current phase, but which only reinforces it under a "revolutionary" appearance ...
The electric car corresponds to the idea of ​​limiting the disadvantages of an absurd mode of transport when it is (as it is) generalized in order to maximize its use where its use is most inappropriate: city. It is a form of normative obsolescence aimed at renewing at any cost a plethoric park whose market can only grow because of this indirect destruction. The energy transition also corresponds to this last criterion: finding profitable outlets for the immense amount of accumulated capital (this criticism does not mean denying the climate emergency) ...

Eclectron, I did not feel hurt by your words, I just wanted to avoid an unpleasant misunderstanding and your last message reassures me completely on this point! 8)
I do not underestimate the sincerity of the "climate walkers", but intention is not enough if it is misguided; the success it meets, its echo in the media, the indirect official encouragement (hence the media echo!), everything suggests that powerful financial interests intend to use this background advertising to promote new products which will thus be imposed on political bodies (the two being closely linked, is it useful to recall it?). We can hope that this movement will become aware of its ambiguities and evolve towards something more radical * ...

* In the demands of this movement already exist a certain number of demands which go beyond the initial "citizenist" framework and seem to me to be going in the right direction: it remains to be seen the dynamic that will emerge ...
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Re: France, mobilization for the climate




by GuyGadebois » 23/09/19, 21:38

Ahmed wrote:GuyGadebois, I call "false good idea" any idea supposed to be a break from the current phase, but which only reinforces it under a "revolutionary" appearance ...
The electric car corresponds to the idea of ​​limiting the disadvantages of an absurd mode of transport when it is (as it is) generalized in order to maximize its use where its use is most inappropriate: city. It is a form of normative obsolescence aimed at renewing at any cost a plethoric park whose market can only grow because of this indirect destruction. The energy transition also corresponds to this last criterion: finding profitable outlets for the immense amount of accumulated capital (this criticism does not mean denying the climate emergency) ...

Putting aside your "tongue in cheek" verbiage, could you list in a clear and above all concrete way, some "false good ideas"?
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Re: France, mobilization for the climate




by Grelinette » 23/09/19, 23:10

Ahmed wrote: ...
I do not underestimate the sincerity of the "climate walkers", but intention is not enough if it is misguided; the success it meets, its echo in the media, the indirect official encouragement (hence the media echo!), everything suggests that powerful financial interests intend to use this background advertising to promote new products which will thus be imposed on political bodies (the two being closely linked, is it useful to recall it?).
We can hope that this movement will become aware of its ambiguities and evolve towards something more radical*...

* In the demands of this movement already exist a certain number of demands which go beyond the initial "citizenist" framework and seem to me to be going in the right direction: it remains to be seen the dynamic that will emerge ...


And this is the big question that the organizers are asking themselves Greenpeace, to know if today the way to manifest conventional has a real effect: between fear of being gassed, getting a LBD bullet in the face, being stuck between Badblocks and Crs, being caught or being sued, the demo becomes a dangerous adventure that dissuades many who simply want to pass a message of opposition to a decision (eg pension reform, emergency crisis, ...), or worry about a serious imminent situation (eg global warming, pollution, ...) .

Moreover, paradoxically, while the goal is to be heard, the media will mostly talk and talk about events that degenerate into violence, and the initial message becomes secondary or even erased. (The change in violence is therefore an effective method to make a demonstration obsolete, but that's another question ...)
Not to mention the risk of being manipulated, either by powerful financial interests, as you point out Ahmedsimply by the government.

In short, what mode of mass action can allow people to convey a message of disagreement or concern and get an answer?
In fact, and this is a fact, since there are demonstrations that denounce, little has really changed and politicians and others continue their path in the path of their own interests ...

In this sense, the "Greta Thunberg" method is very interesting and admirable, because, step by step, part of a simple individual strike in front of the door of her school, she now manages to be the guest of honor for speak out before the UN! ...

Greta Thunderg: "I should not be here, I should be at school on the other side of the ocean. How dare you ? You stole my dreams and my childhood with your empty words. I am one of those lucky. People are suffering, they are dying. Whole ecosystems collapse, we are at the beginning of a mass extinction, and all you are talking about is money, and fairy tales of eternal economic growth? How dare you ! "
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Re: France, mobilization for the climate




by phil53 » 24/09/19, 08:51

GuyGadebois wrote:
Ahmed wrote:GuyGadebois, I call "false good idea" any id ....

Putting aside your "tongue in cheek" verbiage, could you list in a clear and above all concrete way, some "false good ideas"?

I will answer.
For example rather than giving a substantial bonus to buy a car called clean. Premium that benefits those who have the means and then buy a more powerful car. It would have been more virtuous to offer an annual bonus to those who chose not to have a car. This favors public transit, carpooling. This reduces the need for road infrastructure. Everyone can benefit even the poor.
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