Forestry and wood energy

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 16/09/12, 13:36

the boiler is already a better solution than burning oil which should be reserved for use more noble than heating!

the next step I'm working on is the steam boiler for both electricity and heat: cogeneration

if all the wood-burning boilers were to be replaced by cogeneration machines, that would make a rather enormous electricity production exactly when it is coldest, good to turn the heat pumps for those who do not have the possibility to burn wood

the steam engine is not the best solution in performance, but it is simple and manufacturable immediately without inventing anything ... there is to choose among all that has been done in the previous centuries

the wood gasifier with an exlosion motor gives a return to electricity even better ... but it's more technical: it can not be installed in anyone
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by Philippe Schutt » 16/09/12, 13:38

I do not believe that the problem comes from the price of the mill, but rather from the labor required. Indeed, in the mill all the manipulation will be automated while in the forest it will take people to perform and control.

When I see the investment that is being made in the Schirmeck Valley sawmill, where everything will be (is already partially) automated to excess, manufacture of calibrated logs, electricity for the whole valley from bark and peel from sawdust, it's huge and generates only a few jobs.
A job in the forest can not be competitive with that.
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by chatelot16 » 16/09/12, 14:07

the price of labor is first and foremost a political problem!

we are in a country that pays 3 million people to be unemployed ... and that makes the price of labor too expensive for companies that have work to do ... so who prefers to spend money to automate ... and usually automate with material from the other side of the world

of course, the unemployed are paid less than real employees ... but by balancing everything that companies spend to automate, it would be better to make everyone work with simpler materials.

but it is the government that governs and over-complicates everything needed to hire staff and makes it more cost-effective to automate
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by Philippe Schutt » 16/09/12, 14:39

Political problem, I do not know. I suppose that our elected, enarques polytechnicians etc ... do their best.

For cogeneration, the main fault of motors is their wear, right? A turbine seems more durable, but is it suitable for small powers? or something like the quasi-turbine, very simple but annual maintenance on all joints?

Even if the wafer market is self-limiting, it will always be better than importing fuel. And maybe even such a system could work solar in summer?
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by Ahmed » 16/09/12, 20:07

Chatelot16, you write:
We are in a country that pays 3 million people to be unemployed ... and that makes the price of labor too expensive for companies that have work to do ... so who prefers to spend money to automate ... and in general, automate with material from the other side of the world.

I do not believe that the price of labor is an obstacle, or rather, it appears as such because the profitability of many sectors is too low; Unemployment is used as a means of pressure on employees: it can not be said that it is useless! :frown:
By definition, productivity is the ratio between the amount of work provided and the number of employees, so automation is needed if, precisely, a company wants to avoid being left behind. Of course, in the medium term and from a macroeconomic point of view it is a serious contradiction: the logic of the company is opposed frontally to the good functioning of the global economy ...
The opposite policy, going towards low wages, would induce another vicious circle, from which it would be difficult to get out.
This would be all the more damaging if, considering that industrial activity drives value, increasing employment without increasing the wage bill is a zero-sum game (if we consider in the logic of the current economic system).

@ Philippe Schutt:
For cogeneration, the main fault of motors is their wear, right?

Traditional engines are extremely wear resistant because they rotate, in this application, at fairly constant speeds and also at low speeds.
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by chatelot16 » 16/09/12, 20:38

of course an engine is used ... but a Chinese generator 200 has 2000W 6000W electricity and 2W heat lasts at least XNUMX years ... as long as the Chinese sells them at this price n ' is not a problem

but we must not expect it to last, so we have to make something that will certainly be more expensive and will last longer.

the question is not whether it is possible, it has already existed in 1890 ... at a time when there was no electricity, or entire factory were driven by gas engines powered by gas generators that were better than the steam engines of the previous year

with all the progress that has been made since it is very lamentable to make nothing good today
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by roy1361 » 17/09/12, 08:54

Philippe Schutt wrote:When I see the investment that is being made in the Schirmeck Valley sawmill, where everything will be (is already partially) automated to excess, manufacture of calibrated logs, electricity for the whole valley from bark and peel from sawdust ...


Something like that ? www.enerbois.ch
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by Philippe Schutt » 17/09/12, 09:14

yes, it's the same principle.
When you see what they are feeding, it is hard to believe that the forest can grow quite quickly ...
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by roy1361 » 17/09/12, 09:37

Philippe Schutt wrote:When you see what they are feeding, it is hard to believe that the forest can grow quite quickly ...


Yes, it's true. And yet, the area of ​​forest increases ...

That said, there is another approach to the idea of ​​wood energy. it is to recover only forest waste to produce pellet. It is this: http://www.bestpellet.ch/typo3/index.php?id=10&L=1
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by chatelot16 » 17/09/12, 10:01

Philippe Schutt wrote:yes, it's the same principle.
When you see what they are feeding, it is hard to believe that the forest can grow quite quickly ...


and yet it grows more than it cuts

around my home most trees fell with the storm of 1999 were not even used

there is no metaphysical question to ask, we can exploit more wood than today in a perfectly sustainable way

it should not be redone as in 1800 before the coal or the whole industry walked on wood and where we cut too much

At that time, the blast furnace was used for charcoal made by grinding wheels. The yield was bad: too much wood was going off unnecessarily in smoke.

now we have the means to use the wood without loss

and there is even better to do: combine wood and solar energy: solar gazogene! who uses the energy of the sun to break down water, in the presence of charcoal to separate the hydrogen and to make CO: syntege gas: all that is needed to make artificial petroleum

a concentrated solar power station with a steam engine only makes electricity when there is sun ... if the concentration heats up this kind of solar gazogene it produces storable fuel, whose carbon part comes from the wood and the part hydrogen comes from the sun

the carbon part also comes from the sun by the photosynthes of the trees, but what is spectacular is that this carbon part facilitates the storage of the hydrogen!
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