Rare earth: not so rare it

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Re: Rare earths: not so rare




by moinsdewatt » 23/04/17, 14:47

Another recent article on the project in Madagascar:

Madagascar: the Malagasy lands coveted by foreign groups

By RFI Published on 18-04-2017

In Madagascar, civil society is alarmed by the multiplication of expropriations by small farmers in favor of national or foreign private investors. The craze for the lands of the Big Island continues in the context of agricultural or mining projects. In a press release published yesterday, the collective defense of Madagascan lands Tany calls for a ban on the sale of land to foreign private companies. He denounces in particular the granting of a plot of 300 km² to the German company Tantalum to exploit rare earths in Ampasindava, in the north-west of the country.

"The state appeal to foreign investors must not be to the detriment of Malagasy citizens and the environment," claims the Tany collective. Expropriations of small peasants, lack of information for the local populations concerned by the projects of private companies. This is what the collective denounces.

Zo Randriamaro is the coordinator of the Center for Research and Support for Development Alternatives, which works, among other things, to protect Malagasy lands. “There are very few people in Madagascar who have written rights to land. So generally, when they find themselves faced with investors who know the law, who also have the state behind them - because the state wants to promote investments - it ends at the expense of small farmers who lose their livelihood because they only have the land. "

A law in particular is causing an outcry among associations continues Zo Randriamaro. "The current law on investments in Madagascar allows foreigners, whether businesses or private individuals, to acquire land," continues the specialist. This law is a serious violation of the human rights of ordinary people. Traditionally, the land is not sold in Madagascar, because it has a specific cultural, spiritual value. "

This law makes it legal to sell land to any company using a Madagascan nominee, she said. Contacted, the Minister of Regional Planning, Narson Rafidimanana refutes this interpretation and indicates that the investment law only allows to grant a lease to foreign companies.

http://www.rfi.fr/afrique/20170418-mada ... -etrangers
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Re: Rare earths: not so rare




by Exnihiloest » 23/04/17, 16:53

Ahmed wrote:...
Supposing a difficulty due to multiple subjective factors is only an elegant way of drowning the fish under an apparent objectivity:

Sophism

the deciding factor here is the balance of power existing between those who choose "freely" to privilege their comfort and those who accept just as "freely" to sacrifice themselves (to use your specious terminology).

This would only make sense if it were translated into operational terms. As it stands, this remains a purely moral general statement, and moreover invalidated by the facts (poverty worldwide has been reduced by half in 30 years).
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Re: Rare earths: not so rare




by Exnihiloest » 23/04/17, 17:28

dede2002 wrote:
Exnihiloest wrote:As for neodymium, it mainly concerns China, not Madagascar or any third world country.


Have you read the articles?

The Chinese want to relocate production, because of environmental damage.

We could dig in France there are also, to release 150'000 tons (conso world annual) you just have to return 15 billion tons of earth ...

When we see the capacity of nature to recolonize the land, and the human capacity to extract underground and even to fill up afterwards, this extraction remains, with some precautions, in the realm of the possible.
The problem is either to want to pay for everything at the lowest cost, and therefore we bitch, or to ban everything on the pretext that we would bitch everything since we would like everything at the lowest cost, and then we vegetate. But the question is not binary, the possible solutions are between these extremisms.
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Re: Rare earths: not so rare




by Exnihiloest » 24/04/17, 19:24

Exnihiloest wrote:... (poverty worldwide has been cut in half in 30 years).

Sorry to quote myself, but like a gugus from forum overunity.com, citing me, seeks to pass this info off for an aberration without having checked anything at all (on this site for believers in perpetual motion, reigns overflowing science), so I provide some sources:

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/ ... _3234.html
"The proportion of the world's poor has halved since 1981"

https://www.franceculture.fr/societe/le ... s-le-monde
"However, this trend is little known to the general public. According to a study published by the NGO Oxfam, 87% of people worldwide and 92% in France think that poverty has increased or remained at the same level over the past 20 years. A feeling which can be explained by the fact that the cumulative heritage of the richest 1% in the world has exceeded that of the remaining 99%."

http://www.courrierinternational.com/ar ... a-pauvrete
"The percentage of people living on less than $ 1,25 a day has halved in the past XNUMX years."

https://www.contrepoints.org/2013/10/10 ... ite-moitie
"UN report released this summer shows global poverty rate cut by half"

http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2 ... _3212.html
"Extreme poverty falls below 10% of the world's population in 2015"

http://plus.lapresse.ca/screens/d644a91 ... 3f|_0.html
"Do you think globalization has increased poverty on the planet? Think again ! Contrary to popular belief, poverty has declined significantly over the past 30 years."

Of course, that does not mean that the inequalities are not huge. They remain so and it is also a problem. It just means that the trend is positive despite appearances, and it is also quite logical. The relocation of production by Western capitalism to countries with low labor costs, which may be the case for the extraction of rare earths, ends up, even if it is at low cost, by having implications. The increasing technical facility for international trade is also involved. The western bohemian should therefore put things into perspective, it is bad for him but better for others who, it is true, started from scratch anyway.
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Re: Rare earths: not so rare




by Ahmed » 26/04/17, 09:51

First of all, thank you for the "fallacy" which you carelessly gratify me and which avoids you to answer on the merits. You are however excusable since the concept of "balance of power" does not enter your explanatory grid, my sentence could not therefore have meaning. : Wink:

Just as I suspect my economic considerations will be invalidated former before, always for an inadequate explanatory grid reason.
An instrument only measures what it is designed to do and the term "wealth" is fraught with ambiguities.
First of all, it is hardly surprising that wealth (in the most trivial sense of the term) is increasing: the quantity of goods has never been greater. This is explained by the need of the market to always produce more goods to fight against a profit which tends to decrease structurally with the unit price (which allows [less and less] to expand consumption).
Faced with the phenomena of saturation which can be observed in the countries of the center and which lead to delaying strategies in order to avoid collapse, the conquest of the last possible spaces in the countries of the periphery leads to several consequences. On the one hand, a certain displacement of the zones of "prosperity" directed from the center towards the periphery (from where the resentment of the "bobos" of the center), on the other hand a monetarization of populations which lived until then more or less in outside the economic system. The latter have gone from statistical nothingness to the status of "new poor", which reflects a deterioration in their condition; for the others, who are gradually forming a middle class, it is a big step forward (at least if we analyze it according to Western criteria). Obviously, as much the initial growth was great in these countries (I am thinking above all of China) due to the importation of operational techniques (but which have become unproductive in terms of abstract wealth in the countries of origin), so will the saturation be fast and these countries will be overtaken by a history they do not understand, nor will those they imitate understand it.
Material wealth is spread profusely throughout the world, without overcoming poverty, which is not surprising since it is not its goal which is only, through these goods, the accumulation of abstract wealth. This last point also explains two things: first, that the growth in wealth inequality is not an accident that could possibly be mitigated, but is an integral part of the process (thereby creating increasing relative poverty, since the difference in wealth measures the balance of power existing between social categories); second, that the creation of material wealth for the purpose of infinite and irrational abstract accumulation leads to the massive destruction of natural wealth.
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Re: Rare earths: not so rare




by moinsdewatt » 26/04/17, 19:12

A rare earth recovery product in the `` red mud '' of bauxite in Greece is promising.

......
Dr. Efthymios Balomenos, Senior Researcher at the School of Mining and Metallurgical Engineering, NTUA

“This particular bauxite residue contains around 1,5 kg of rare earth per tonne. This may not seem very impressive until you do the math. Add 700 tonnes per year: we are sitting on 000% of the European annual demand for rare earths. ”

What we need is an inexpensive way to extract these precious items. This is one of the many objectives of a European research project aimed at alleviating Europe's total dependence on imported rare earths. Engineers in Athens have developed a simple method to dissolve and remove rare earth elements from red mud.

..............


in full: http://fr.euronews.com/2017/04/24/comme ... de-dechets
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Re: Rare earths: not so rare




by dede2002 » 27/04/17, 08:15

Interesting!

According to the figures, this mining waste contains 2x more rare earths than the deposit of Madagascar.

The leaching technique seems identical, with the big difference that in Greece it is done within the framework of the existing factory, and that one can suppose that the state services require a purification and a control of waste water ...?
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Re: Rare earths: not so rare




by Exnihiloest » 29/04/17, 22:51

Ahmed wrote:First of all, thank you for the "fallacy" which you carelessly gratify me and which avoids you to answer on the merits. You are however excusable since the concept of "balance of power" does not enter your explanatory grid, my sentence could not therefore have meaning. : Wink:

First of all, don't make it a personal matter. I am not "gratifying" you. I qualify one of your words. I recall that your statement was:
"Assuming difficulty due to multiple subjective factors is only an elegant way of drowning the fish in apparent objectivity".

It is a fallacy and an innuendo. Assuming a difficulty due to multiple subjective factors is in no way a way of drowning the fish (trial of intention). It is to suppose a difficulty because of multiple subjective factors. And there are. It is obvious that weighing the pros or cons, for example of exploiting neodymium in Madagascar, requires assessing the impact on the environment. For each of the solutions considered, it will not be the same, as the cost, for example mine is open pit or not. This also requires evaluating the impact on the standard of living of local populations, perhaps positive and it can be part of the negotiation, and everything will be played out with judgments established according to scales of values ​​rarely shared by the actors. . For example the acceptance of a certain degradation of one thing to obtain the advantage of another, will depend on subjective factors, it depends on the people.
An objective evaluation of the project becomes almost impossible when it is complex and involves very different people, who do not have the same interests. Your "the benefit / harm ratio is easy to establish, which helps the final decision well", certainly not. Obviously, if you only tell us about the thesis of the operators, yes "the ratio advantages / disadvantages is easy to establish". If you only speak to us about the thesis of the ecologists, yes "the ratio advantages / disadvantages is easy to establish". But if you tell us about a decision obtained between operators, environmentalists, the populations concerned, and for the general interest, no: the advantages / disadvantages ratio will be very difficult to establish. The existence of rational criteria which would allow an automatic decision once one has fulfilled the parameters of the grid is a utopia. Only a consensus can support a decision.

Just as I suspect my economic considerations will be invalidated former before, always for an inadequate explanatory grid reason.
An instrument only measures what it is designed to do and the term "wealth" is fraught with ambiguities.
First of all, it is hardly surprising that wealth (in the most trivial sense of the term) is increasing: the quantity of goods has never been greater. This is explained by the need of the market to always produce more goods to fight against a profit which tends to decrease structurally with the unit price (which allows [less and less] to expand consumption).
Faced with the phenomena of saturation which can be observed in the countries of the center and which lead to delaying strategies in order to avoid collapse, the conquest of the last possible spaces in the countries of the periphery leads to several consequences. On the one hand, a certain displacement of the zones of "prosperity" directed from the center towards the periphery (from where the resentment of the "bobos" of the center), on the other hand a monetarization of populations which lived until then more or less in outside the economic system. The latter have gone from statistical nothingness to the status of "new poor", which reflects a deterioration in their condition; for the others, who are gradually forming a middle class, it is a big step forward (at least if we analyze it according to Western criteria). Obviously, as much the initial growth was great in these countries (I am thinking above all of China) due to the importation of operational techniques (but which have become unproductive in terms of abstract wealth in the countries of origin), so will the saturation be fast and these countries will be overtaken by a history they do not understand, nor will those they imitate understand it.
Material wealth is spread profusely throughout the world, without overcoming poverty, which is not surprising since it is not its goal which is only, through these goods, the accumulation of abstract wealth. This last point also explains two things: first, that the growth in wealth inequality is not an accident that could possibly be mitigated, but is an integral part of the process (thereby creating increasing relative poverty, since the difference in wealth measures the balance of power existing between social categories); second, that the creation of material wealth for the purpose of infinite and irrational abstract accumulation leads to the massive destruction of natural wealth.

My point was not about economic theories (if economics was a science, it would have a predictive power, but we have never seen it announce a stock market crash). I try to keep my feet on the ground.
"Material wealth is spread in profusion over the world, without overcoming poverty": what do you call "overcoming poverty"? What do you call "poverty"?
Without a quantified definition, this kind of statement is a tautology because everyone will go there from their feelings. But poverty is assessed according to certain objective criteria (I have given enough links on the subject). If those of the United Nations do not satisfy everyone, they at least have the merit of having been defined, and the evaluation indicates progress in the right direction. It becomes a little painful to see that the slightest positive aspect of anything in the world is immediately denied. I come to wonder if the denial of the positive points does not have the same cause as the highlighting of the negative points, used by all the protesters to extol their miracle recipes or to justify the destruction of the existing system.
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Re: Rare earths: not so rare




by Ahmed » 03/05/17, 21:44

What you are explaining is that consensus is difficult to obtain when the points of view are diametrically opposed, which obviously constitutes a truism and not the subject of my remark. This one did not relate to the divergence of the subjective opinions or the interests (objective or supposed such), but on the balance of power which exists between them, relation which will be determining in the final choice.

That the economy is not a science, in spite of the evil that it takes to appear such, I am perfectly aware of it: its vice is principal, since it is only the illustration and the celebration of economic order. This does not imply giving up cautiously resorting to certain reasoning of an economic nature, since to dispense with it is to condemn nothing to an era that lives under his reign, it would be like studying the Middle Ages without anything to know theology (I did not say to study MA in the light of theology!) ...
Of course the UN and the big "things" give pride of place to an abstract monetarist conception (it is all the easier as a qualitative approach would be almost a puzzle, it must be admitted), but this 'is a discussion that would be endless and the main thing is not to define poverty according to a more or less relevant "scale", no, what is important is the relationship between the lowest and highest incomes , as well as the quantitative distribution according to the populations concerned. Indeed, it is the relative wealth which conditions the power of the ones over the others, these power relations which respectively determine the dependence and the domination. By the extension of monetarization, the subjection grows because of the growth of inequalities and far from being this accidental phenomenon that you recognize, it is about a structural reality.
As for the "destruction of the" existing "system, it is indeed a prerequisite for the cessation of the general destruction of living conditions on earth.
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Re: Rare earths: not so rare




by sen-no-sen » 04/05/17, 17:10

Exnihiloest wrote: It just means that the trend is positive despite appearances, and it is also quite logical. The relocation of production by Western capitalism to countries with low labor costs, which may be the case for the extraction of rare earths, ends up, even if it is at low cost, by having implications. The increasing technical facility for international trade is also involved. The western bohemian should therefore put things into perspective, it is bad for him but better for others who, it is true, started from scratch anyway.


The trend is positive subjectively on the one hand and temporarily the other.
It is undeniable that the material conditions are improving (on this subject see the video of Hans Rosling: do not panic):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FACK2knC08E


The problem is that this kind of analysis completely eludes the notion of ecocide and starts from the principle that current material conditions should continue to grow indefinitely ...
Objectively and from a meta-historical point of view there is no improvement.
Everything that is gained (in a very uneven way, moreover) is automatically lost in other areas. All the subterfuge of the current system consists in evacuating entropy on the periphery or further in time to maintain the illusion that everything is going improving.
So today's society is in the case of an obese overweight person who would be affected by intestinal cancer causing weight loss. There necessarily comes a period when the said person is at are BMI ideal, except that this period is only temporary and actually leads to death ...
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