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Snickers
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by Snickers » 11/07/07, 22:45

The first feedback from precursors
Two main "alternative" energies are exploited in Germany.
- Wind through wind power plants
- The sun through photovoltaic power plants

First observation: Production from “alternative” power plants is unstable. An installed wind or photovoltaic KW produces this KW only 20% of the time.
80% of the remaining time must be produced from alternative energy. Variations in production are very rapid.
Second observation: Nuclear does not absorb these variations. The 80% of remaining production is therefore ensured by thermal : Shock: (case of Germany) and by hydraulics (case of Denmark)

In Germany, 1 KW wind or photovoltaic installed, it is 1 Kw thermal opposite that must be kept or installed.
Wind or photovoltaic production covers 20% of the time, the 80% of the remaining time is thermal with gas emission of all kinds.
To reach 20% of energy from renewable sources, Germany is inaugurating a new coal-fired power station (Yes, yes, it's crazy but it's reality, these are new generation "clean" :? ) Nuclear power plants not being compatible no longer exist, we will delete them!

In Denmark, they have a lot of water and hydraulic power stations. So wind and photovoltaic can save water. For them ... it's all good.

For France, there is water but not like in Denmark, all just enough to regulate the variations in consumption that nuclear cannot absorb its slow reaction. And, that is not always enough, so France keeps thermal power plants (some of them).
The integration of renewable in France (wind and photovoltaic) on the network means and I'm afraid a restart of thermal ...: Evil:

In Germany, by well-established communication methods, we were led to believe that the wind was clean. The awakening is very bitter. We can no longer do without thermal power plants. The powerful lobbies have maneuvered well! Some begin to understand, I pay my electricity 0.16 € / kw!
Conclusion, this brings a lot to some.

Each KW renewal from photovoltaic or wind turbines injected into the network requires 4 KW from thermal. : Evil: : Evil: : Evil: : Evil:
I am 100% for renewable but individual!
We recharge the batteries of his VAE and maybe soon of his car. We fill the reserve of pressurized water, we supply the lighting of the aquarium during the day with photovoltaic panels. We install solar panels, a small wind turbine to heat the water, the house ....
Everyone has to analyze their sources of consumption and adapt their strategy to reduce their energy impact. These solutions seem to me much more positive and effective than accepting to pay more for its energy with hypothetical renewable proportions ...
The first thing and the best thing that you can do individually at first is SAVE.

We can clearly see that resolving our energy impact is not simple. Integrating renewable energy into a network poses delicate problems ...
The German network, now comprising considerable wind power, has become very vulnerable and even unstable ... It has succeeded in causing half of Europe to be cut off, with its origins being an unfortunate occasional competition linked to the maintenance of a line and a small gale ... This one generating a one-time over-voltage which causes a cascade collapse ...

The other alternatives: The production of bio-fuel is an alternative but it is already needed so much for transport ... that it is not close to being used in a power plant. For bio-gases, it's a bit the same, however, biogas-based production is continuous.
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by Woodcutter » 11/07/07, 23:16

What is the source of the article?

(the rhetoric is exactly that of the fanatic opponents of wind power, "Wind of Anger" style ...)
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by Snickers » 12/07/07, 00:06

It is a shortcut from the current discussions and the current findings in Germany ... I have been living in Germany for a long time ...

Indeed wind of anger on some point may not be entirely wrong ... it draws their analyzes from somewhere had too!

There is indeed an alternative to the main reinjection problem that I quote, linked to renewable ...
It is to control the reinjection according to demand ...
Basically, each wind or photovoltaic plant is controlled.
They are adjusted in real time at around 50% -80% of their instantaneous capacity and the injection also fluctuates in real time with consumption.
Only no power plant still works like this ... Imagine, this almost halves the expected gains on average.
This would avoid uncontrolled production fluctuations from 0 to 100%.
The renewable / fossil consumed ratio is increasing considerably. This may be the strategy adopted when Germany becomes over-capacity ...
We're not there yet...

Personally, for now ... I am testing the overcapacity on some of my consumption sources ...
Last edited by Snickers the 13 / 07 / 07, 23: 09, 2 edited once.
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by Christophe » 12/07/07, 01:08

I more or less agree with these arguments ... which somewhat join my short post today: https://www.econologie.com/forums/post54785.html#54785
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by Snickers » 14/07/07, 00:11

An article on aujoudhui yahoo.
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070713/t ... ff8aa.html
He does not say everything but highlights certain network problems ...
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by Christophe » 14/07/07, 00:19

PARIS (AFP) - The performance of the French wind farm is "quite low and uncertain, between 14% and 21% for the period 2001 to 2006", says a study by the Xerfi cabinet published on Friday.
(Publicity)

However, its yield will become "a little more constant as the park grows and is spread over the whole of the territory", adds the sectoral studies firm.

"Electricity produced from wind power trains has a production cost much higher than that of nuclear or thermal power plants," he explains.

The sector is currently profitable only thanks to the system of repurchase, set up by the public authorities, of this energy by the electrician EDF at a price guaranteed for 15 years, higher than the market price, recalls the cabinet.

Nevertheless, "two strategies are available to operators to avoid possible disappointments".

The first is the internationalization of the activity, because the takeover of parks located in different European countries makes it possible to reduce the hazards linked to the wind.

The second strategy consists of "diversifying into other modes of electricity production such as photovoltaics, hydraulics or conventional technologies", to limit the risks inherent in the operation of power plants (shutdown for maintenance, absence of wind, technical problem, etc.).

The cabinet believes that the development of the wind farm "weakens the supply-demand balance of electricity necessary for the proper functioning of the network by presenting an intermittent electricity production" and "only partially responds to the inadequacies of the electricity production capacities".

In addition, the extension of the French wind farm will face a saturation problem by 2015, as is already the case in Germany or in other northern European countries, according to Xerfi.


Sorry but i don't understand anything ... what's the meaning of the word yield in this article?

Financial or technological performance? In the second case, return compared to what? 2% compared to the recoverable power of the wind? 21% compared to the installed nominal power (it is not a scoop that a wind turbine produces only 21/1 of the time ...) ...

Anyway, I row a little ...
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by Woodcutter » 14/07/07, 00:21

Snickers wrote:An article on aujoudhui yahoo.
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070713/t ... ff8aa.html
He does not say everything but highlights certain network problems ...
This article also says an interesting thing: a network with wind turbines scattered in very different places would have a much more stable production ... (because there is always wind somewhere!)
There remains the problem of online losses ...
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by Christophe » 14/07/07, 01:09

Toutafé Bucheron, the global wind energy potential is constant and is notably due to the day / night cycle.

It is estimated between 2,5 and 5 * 10 ^ 15 kwh / year (according to engineering techniques).

That's a lot ... but very little is "recoverable" (already because most of it is on the high seas)
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by Snickers » 14/07/07, 01:19

I think he expected 30-40% of the time at a nominal production level as some studies sometimes promise ...
The average is more like 20% ...

For the notion of distribution
The wind turbine which produces 100 Kw in the south of Germany. If it has to send its energy north to 800 km. There is not much left when you arrive ...
Networks are not intended for this. They are sized for a relatively distributed and balanced production.

So to hope for a distribution of this kind is completely utopian. It does not already work on the scale of a country ... so internationally! : Shock:

Online losses wipe out any hope of doing so!
With new specific lines ... maybe ... in Ultra High Voltage :? : Cheesy:

Production must be as close as possible to the place of consumption.
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by Woodcutter » 14/07/07, 01:45

The question is therefore: for a given electricity production, what is the minimum size of the wind "network" to have pseudo-stability over time (in a country like France, let's say)?
And as a corollary to this: is this size compatible with line losses?
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