ITER when?

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Re: ITER when?




by GuyGadebois » 04/04/20, 18:40

I bet you that this thing won't even start. See you in 2025 where he is supposed to produce his first plasma! And 2035 (LOL) for its first merger ...
https://www.futura-sciences.com/science ... 025-62711/
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Re: ITER when?




by Remundo » 04/04/20, 21:01

good explanatory video of JPP

good foot good eye our old JPP 8)
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Re: ITER when?




by Juju64 » 24/04/20, 21:41

To have been on the project, there is still time. And then the project that will interest us will be DEMO https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demo_(r%C3%A9acteur)
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Re: ITER when?




by moinsdewatt » 27/07/20, 22:42

Start Tuesday of the assembly of the fusion reactor of the Iter project

AFP published on July 27. 2020

Almost fifteen years after its beginnings, the assembly of the reactor for the international Iter project, the ambition of which is to control hydrogen fusion, will be launched Tuesday in the south of France by videoconference, by Emmanuel Macron in a message registered, as well as representatives of several of the 35 member states.


This ambitious project, based in Saint-Paul-lès-Durance (Bouches-du-Rhône), about forty kilometers from Aix-en-Provence, aims to recreate the unlimited energy produced by the sun and the stars, via the fusion of hydrogen, in the hope of finding an alternative to fossil fuels.

President Emmanuel Macron is expected to speak in a pre-recorded video message, according to sources close to the executive, followed by videoconference statements from several representatives of states and partner organizations, such as European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen or South Korean President Moon Jae-In.

In recent months, several components of this experimental reactor called "Tokamak" - some as tall as a four-storey building and weighing several hundred tons - have been delivered to the site from India, China, Japan, South Korea and Italy, now making it possible to launch an assembly procedure that can last up to five years.

Ten times larger than its counterparts, the first versions of which were developed in the 1950s in the Soviet Union, this gigantic reactor will reproduce the hydrogen fusion reaction that occurs naturally in the heart of the sun: concretely, this fusion will be obtained by bringing to a temperature of the order of 150 million degrees a mixture of two isotopes of hydrogen transformed into plasma.

By bombarding the wall of the Tokamak, the neutrons born from this fusion produce heat which will be evacuated by a pressurized water circuit to then supply, in the form of steam, a turbine and an alternator, and produce at the end of the chain electricity.

In the long term, the fusion of hydrogen would be a safe and clean source of energy, making it possible to do without fossil fuels. Obtained from fuels present in abundance on earth, water and lithium, it has the advantage of not generating radioactive waste, unlike a nuclear reactor.

The Iter site, one of the largest in Europe, covers nearly 42 hectares and has mobilized 2.300 workers since its inception in 2010, with an estimated bill of nearly 20 billion euros. The first marketable kWh produced by a fusion reactor is not expected before 2060.


https://www.connaissancedesenergies.org ... r-200727-0
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Re: ITER when?




by izentrop » 27/07/20, 23:14

Hello,
moinsdewatt wrote:This ambitious project, based in Saint-Paul-lès-Durance (Bouches-du-Rhône), about forty kilometers from Aix-en-Provence, aims to recreate the unlimited energy produced by the sun and the stars, via the fusion of hydrogen, in the hope of finding an alternative to fossil fuels.
What we don't know is that the 150 million degrees to be reached and maintained are nothing compared to other obstacles:
Daniel Jassby was a Principal Investigator at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory until 1999. For 25 years he worked in the areas of plasma physics and fusion-related neutron production. He explains ...
The most reactive fusion fuel is a 50/50 mixture of the isotopes of hydrogen, deuterium and tritium; this fuel (often noted "DT") has a production of fusion neutrons 100 times greater than that of deuterium alone, and a spectacular increase in the consequences of radiation.

Deuterium is abundant in ordinary water, but there is no natural supply of tritium, a radioactive nuclide with a half-life of only 12,3 years. The ITER website states that the tritium fuel will be "taken from the global tritium inventory". This inventory consists of tritium extracted from heavy water from CANDU nuclear reactors, located primarily in Ontario, Canada, and secondarily in South Korea, with a potential future source from Romania. Today's "global inventory" is around 25 kilograms and is only increasing by about half a kilogram per year, note Muyi Ni and his co-authors in their 2013 review article, "Tritium Supply Assessment for ITER ”, in Fusion Engineering and Design. The inventory is expected to peak before 2030.

While mergers gleefully talk about merging deuterium and tritium, they are actually terribly afraid of using tritium for two reasons: First, it is somewhat radioactive, so there are safety concerns associated with its release. potential in the environment. Second, there is an inevitable production of radioactive material as DT fusion neutrons bombard the reactor vessel, requiring improved shielding which greatly impedes access for maintenance and introduces radioactive waste disposal problems.

In 65 years of research involving hundreds of facilities, only two magnetic containment systems have ever used tritium: the Tokamak fusion test reactor from my old playground at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, and the Joint European Tokamak (JET) in Culham, UK, back to the 1990s.

ITER's current plans provide for the acquisition and consumption of at least 1 kilogram of tritium per year. Assuming that the ITER project is able to acquire an adequate supply of tritium and is brave enough to use it, will 500 MW of fusion power actually be achieved? Nobody knows.

The “first plasma” at ITER is slated to take place in 2025. This will be followed by 10 relatively moderate years of machine assembly and periodic plasma operations with hydrogen and helium. These gases do not produce fusion neutrons, and thus allow the resolution of agitation problems and the optimization of plasma performance with minimal risks of radiation. Plasma instabilities must be kept at bay to ensure adequate energy containment, so that the reactive plasma can be heated and maintained at high temperature. Inflows of non-hydrogen atoms must be reduced.

ITER's schedule foresees the use of deuterium and tritium from the end of the 2030s. But there is no guarantee of reaching the 500 MW target; the production of fusion energy in large quantities depends, among other things, on the elaboration of the optimal recipe for injection of deuterium and tritium by frozen granules, particle beams, gas blowing and recycling. During the inevitable start-up phase of the early 2040s, it is likely that ITER's fusion power will be only a fraction of 500 MW, and that more injected tritium will be lost through non-recovery than burned ( i.e. fused with deuterium) ... https://thebulletin.org/2018/02/iter-is ... ion-energy
It is confirmed on the site of iter https://www.iter.org/fr/mach/tritiumbreeding
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Re: ITER when?




by Grelinette » 01/08/20, 14:29

I live near the Cadarache site where the ITER project is developing. Passing in front of the site one can indeed see the gigantism of this project, even from the outside. In addition, I also have the opportunity to attend many local conferences on this project, conferences often held to reassure the local populations, the worried vulgum pecus that we are, on the safety of the project and the bright future that we are. it will produce in the region ... and in the world.

When you are not a specialist in the subject it is very difficult to have an opinion as the announcements made by experts and other specialists in the subject are diametrically opposed!

That said, when I read the arguments put forward on the ITER project such as: Abundant and unlimited energy production, No CO₂ emissions, No long-lived high-activity radioactive waste, A ridiculous cost of the energy produced, No impact on the environment, etc, etc, ... I can only be suspicious of so much good news to come!

Have we finally discovered the energy Grail!

... and I cannot help but make the connection with these many theories of Perpetual motion that produce inexhaustible energy out of nothing!

Could the ITER project be the exception that confirms the rule that you cannot obtain abundant energy from nothing? ...
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Re: ITER when?




by Remundo » 01/08/20, 16:40

what you reported in green is a tissue of propagandist lies.

In details
* abundant and unlimited energy: ITER fuels are, on the contrary, very rare on Earth: Deuterium very little present, Tritium absent, except by artificial means
* CO2 emissions: in the current state, ITER depends on mining activities which are part of a high carbon energy mix
* ridiculous cost: everything allows to doubt it !! ITER is 15 to 20 billion € which will produce nothing as energy, and for the moment nobody knows if a prototype of fusion power station can function according to the principles of ITER, and even less at what cost.
* waste: there will be waste in the ITER sector, including for the prototype which will not produce anything tangible: heaps of radioactive materials such as tritium (tritiated water = poison) but also materials activated by hypervelocity neutrons coming out of the stress-free plasma. It is true thatbeforehand, we will not have HAVL which are more characteristic of fission products.

Let's put it simply: ITER is a mess of nuclearists and other dreaming or opportune scientists. I don't think that even in 100 years we'll have released anything profitable of this cathedral. We may have some additional knowledge about DT plasmas ...
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Re: ITER when?




by Grelinette » 02/08/20, 12:52

Remundo wrote:what you reported in green is a tissue of propagandist lies.

In details
* abundant and unlimited energy: ITER fuels are, on the contrary, very rare on Earth: Deuterium very little present, Tritium absent, except by artificial means
* CO2 emissions: in the current state, ITER depends on mining activities which are part of a high carbon energy mix
* ridiculous cost: everything allows to doubt it !! ITER is 15 to 20 billion € which will produce nothing as energy, and for the moment nobody knows if a prototype of fusion power station can function according to the principles of ITER, and even less at what cost.
* waste: there will be waste in the ITER sector, including for the prototype which will not produce anything tangible: heaps of radioactive materials such as tritium (tritiated water = poison) but also materials activated by hypervelocity neutrons coming out of the stress-free plasma. It is true thatbeforehand, we will not have HAVL which are more characteristic of fission products.

Let's put it simply: ITER is a mess of nuclearists and other dreaming or opportune scientists. I don't think that even in 100 years we'll have released anything profitable of this cathedral. We may have some additional knowledge about DT plasmas ...

Remundo,
I agree with most of your arguments, although I must admit that I am not competent in the matter!

Having said that, by necessity, living near Cadarache, I have to meet several people around me who are working on this gigantic project which employs thousands of people, of all qualifications. 3 of my neighbors work in Cadarache and on Iter and several of the children who go to school with my children have parents who work on the ITER project, in particular engineers and department heads.

We regularly talk about this subject over a meal or an aperitif with friends and I am perplexed to see to what extent very high level people (engineers, technicians, researchers, ...) can have diametrically opposed opinions. !!!
It is very surprising and therefore difficult to form an opinion on the question. I think that most of the people working on this project have such advantages in terms of wages, working conditions and means, "prestige", etc., that they prefer to close their eyes to the controversies, uncertainties and probable dangers of this project. project.

For my part, it is more an objective analysis which makes me think that ITER is a kind of somewhat schizophrenic utopian megalo project, because the arguments in favor of ITER are far too perfect and wonderful to be credible. Without forgetting the colossal budgets and the deadlines which are revised upwards every year, and even more by those who work on the project on a daily basis.

... and without forgetting either this race for profitability which makes unconscious decisions to choose the most economical supplier, which will make discreet savings on security or the necessary staff ... Unfortunately, the media (and NGOs regularly) ) reveal to us the drifts on this security, as much on the materials used as on the not always qualified personnel ... and without forgetting either the frauds and other corruption inherent to these big projects accompanied by colossal masses of money!
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Re: ITER when?




by Remundo » 02/08/20, 13:29

the staff working at ITER have a cozy salary guaranteed by the State and without obligation of results, so even if some are lucid, on the front they pretend to believe it.

and then 15 or 20 billion € paid in a region, and well that makes people work, the money circulates and everyone veils the face because in the short term, we pick up gossip. Locally yes, but France is losing out.
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Re: ITER when?




by Paul72 » 02/08/20, 14:09

Even admitting that a fusion reactor will work one day (very distant), it will undoubtedly be the most advanced technology ever produced, and therefore surely the most expensive and difficult to build, with a lot of scarce resources required. So of course, that would have a cost impossible to assess today (that's too many "ifs").
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