Heat pump powered by EdF fuel-fired power stations

[Christophe]

Consequence of the massive installation of heat pumps and other air conditioning (reversible or not)? Without a doubt!

Edf inaugurates new oil-fired power plants ... but no, it's clean geothermal ... Hey thank you ADEME !!

14/11/08 14:03 PM EDF commissions two new turbines in Ile-de-France

(AOF) - EDF is continuing to strengthen its electricity production capacity in France with the commissioning in Vaires-sur-Marne (Seine-et-Marne) of two new oil-fired turbines with a total capacity of 370 MW. These facilities aim to meet peak production needs, that is to say during consumption peaks, and they will run a few hundred hours a year, said the electrician. (how do I believe ...)

These investments are part of a major program to commission 6 MW of additional generation capacity in 000 years over the 6-2006 period (equivalent to the consumption of 2012 million inhabitants), including more than 6/2 of “peak” production.

For Pierre Gadonneix, Chairman and CEO of EDF, "After 10 years without investing in new means of production, EDF today confirms its commitment made in October 2005 to diversify its means of production, both thermal and nuclear, with construction the new 1650 MW EPR reactor at Flamanville in Normandy, which is scheduled to be commissioned in 2012 ".

Source: http://bourse.lci.fr/news.hts?urlAction ... ate=081114

[dirk pitt]

it's a bit caricatured.
you give us primary anti PAC.
first, I would be curious to know the sectors of activity which increase the demand for electricity. not sure that residential heating is there for that.
secondly, if these PACs come to replace aging fuel oil boilers, I applaud with both hands. the overall gain in oil is real.
well, okay, I would have preferred that these old oil boilers were replaced by pellets, wood chips, solar heated floors, etc. but the ideal does not exist and this world is made of compromises.

[Christophe]

Well, I do mostly ecological anti-foutage ... in short anti-greenwashing ...

Who consumes the most electricity in France? Surely not the factories, they close one after the other ... then there are the offices (air conditioning fully) and the residential ...

Show the CO2 and primary energy balance of a heat pump powered by an oil-fired thermal power station and compare with an oil-fired boiler ... It will be great, see better for the boiler ... problem: the heat pump is considered green and "subsidized" ...

If not escrology what is it?

[dirk pitt]

Show the CO2 and primary energy balance of a heat pump supplied by an oil-fired thermal power plant and compare with an oil boiler ... It will be kif kif, see better for the boiler ...

I don't know, you have the numbers, I don't like to talk in a vacuum.
but as seen from the wrong, if the CAP to a cop of 3, it would mean that to consume as much as the equivalent fuel oil boiler, the efficiency to do the elec and transport it should be 30% ...
it seems to me that turbine power plants generally make cogeneration so it must be rather better not to mention the number effect (n small boilers for a large turbine power plant)

in short, you would have to have the figures to be impartial.

for the distribution by sector of activity, you're right, the tertiary / residential sector represented 65% in 2007, I just checked. still that in there, we should know the part of the residential because when I see how they heat and cool the offices and shopping centers, I am green

[Christophe]

You see I was not wrong ...

when i see how they heat and cool offices and malls, i'm green

Here is the basic problem ... you saw the mouth of the new strasbourg station? It's a greenhouse! Don't say the air conditioning bill in summer ...

There are also small traders who leave their doors open to better attract customers ... what seems to be profitable!

There are also PCs never cut in millions of offices in France ... etc etc ...

A good doc on the question: https://www.econologie.com/eclairage-et- ... -3706.html

[Ahmed]

According to figures that I remember, a nuclear power plant has a yield of 27%, from which it is necessary to deduct an average of 10% of line losses (transport).
Are these figures proven?

An oil or gas power plant has a significantly higher initial output (due to the higher working pressure). The loss online is obviously the same.

In short, even with a cop of 3, which is a very favorable case (eg installation near the sea), a heat pump * will not compensate for anything at all.

In addition, even if the principle of the cap is quite simple, identical to that of the domestic fridge, this system works on powers which request it strongly. Therefore, it is legitimate to wonder if, after a few years, the burden of maintenance or replacement of the device will not cancel (or even outright surpass) suddenly the savings in consumption compared to vulgar electric heaters.

I wonder if I am not tempted by "the anti pimaire PAC"


* I'm talking about an air / air or air / water cap, the case of water / water cap (or water / air?) Is, in my opinion, very different.

[Christophe]

+1 Ahmad!

But 27%, a little low ... I always heard between 30 and 35% ... after that obviously depends on the load factor!

The fact is that to make a DPE, calculated on primary energy, we correct electrical kWh by 2.58 ... which corresponds to a return on primary energy of 100 / 2.58 = 38.8%

Taking into account the line and transformation losses, this results in a "central efficiency" close to 50% which is all the same very high.

The best central yields are currently obtained by turbines with a combined gas-steam cycle (a kind of mechanical cogeneration) at 54-55% ... there are also very large marine engines like the sultzer which are in these yields. .

See: https://www.econologie.com/forums/meilleur-r ... t5929.html

For water / X heat pumps (in fact it would be necessary to say soil / X in 90% of cases), if the average COP is better, the fact remains that the additional investment cost is significant and the maintenance problems similar. ..

For me, the heat pump is clearly reserved for the south of France (excluding the mountains) to replace conventional convectors ... there lies the only economic interest ... if need be, upgrading a conventional boiler in the rest of France for summer...

[loop]

Hello

The concept of the CAP is not bad in itself, but it is what it implies in terms of energy management at the national level, which poses a real problem.
The State, through ADEM, no doubt believed that it was doing a double blow with the subsidization of PACs.
On the one hand, the idea of ​​reducing overall electricity consumption, thanks to the COP> 1, and reducing energy dependence on oil.
Obviously this scenario did not really unfold thus.
Instead of seeing a reduction in the demand for electricity, it has, on the contrary, increased with the results indicated at the beginning of this subject with regard to new power stations.
The observation is still topical, heating (or air conditioning) from non-renewable electricity is heresy, both in terms of the overall energy balance, as on the very idea of ​​managing production from large power plants.
Sooner or later, we will have to face the facts, electricity consumption will have to adapt to average production (a large part of which is renewable, I hope) and not vice versa.

A+

[dirk pitt]

, heating (or air conditioning) with non-renewable electricity is heresy,

well yes but here we are not in the wonderful world of kisses
we cannot heat all French households with renewable energy. not yet anyway.

you need a mix of solutions.
grants have perverse effects but if they are limited in volume and duration, they allow the pump to be primed (heat ) on solutions that could hardly penetrate without.

[loop]

What do you all have with your teddy bears?

Personally, if I had to install a heat pump, I would also opt for hydro-accumulation.
At off-peak rates, my heat pump would rotate until the buffer tank was loaded and use would be smoothed over the day.
Do not forget that the production regulation of nuclear power plants is nonexistent, and that it is the night lighting of the streets that partly consumes the overproduction. This also significantly lowers the overall balance sheet of nuclear power plants, but no one takes this into account in its calculations.

My proposal is a technical solution among others, but it is concrete and not a Bisoutruc solution

If all the customers of a truly green heat pump were also to invest in a "green" electricity production method such as wind turbines, we would not be there.
Buying a heat pump is a responsible act. But do we still know what that means?

A+