Are forests yesterday's charcoal?

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Re: ARE FORESTS THE COAL OF YESTERDAY?




by Did67 » 17/05/21, 11:39

Hey there ... Come on, we're changing the subject!

Let's stay on the major statement, flowed in the first post, and explain to me how "this practice is not carbon neutral and generates more emissions than coal, ..."

I remind you, if we reason on a cycle.

I wrote it above, the day after the combustion of a wood truck, the CO2 corresponding to the carbon contained in wood is in the air ... That of charcoal too.

Except that, except for a change in the use of the areas concerned (which I do not deny in Brazil - soybeans - or in the Philippines - copra), this CO2 will be gradually re-absorbed.

Note that the "clean cut", from this point of view, does not change anything! If we replant behind.

Biodiversity, I have also said, is something else. Because this replanted forest will not have the same floristic or faunistic "composition".

Finally, don't make the mistake of pretending that a forest like the one behind my house, managed in natural regeneration, is "balanced". It is a culture of trees chosen by the forest technician.

So the debate, if we avoid the fundamental question above, remains "natural forest" (almost non-existent in Europe) and "anthropized forest". The clean cut is only the most brutal extreme of mechanized anthropization. But stop dreaming, like eco-bobos who have never left their I-Mac in the 16th arrondissement, that a forest driven by "natural regeneration" is ... natural! Words are misleading. And so it is also a crippled ecosystem!

But so that I don't die completely stupid, explain to me how "this practice [burning wood to produce electricity] is not carbon neutral and generates more emissions than coal, ..."


PS: Let there be no confusion: I am against it, because technically, energetically, quite stupid! Unlike direct heating by pellet boiler, with a similar output, in the case of my condensing boiler, of 100% ... This is the centralized model of the "big energy companies" (since there is no 'EdF) which should be contested ... I regret that the solution of an individual pellet boiler with generation of electricity by a Stirling engine, explored by Ökofen, was not successful ... Too complex, therefore too expensive, in a world where energy is sold off - therefore consumed galore. And produced "with brutality".
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Re: ARE FORESTS THE COAL OF YESTERDAY?




by Ahmed » 17/05/21, 11:57

I see that you are taking quite a few introductory precautions to frame the debate: I fully agree with them.
I refer you to the previous messages where it is explained, supporting document, that the more a fuel is "pure" (in the sense of rich) in carbon, the more it produces energy for the same quantity of carbon (or the proposition reciprocal, obviously). Lignite emits more carbon than anthracite and wood as well. In these two cases (lignite and wood), it is the already oxidized carbon molecules that are released during combustion. without participating that plague the balance sheet ...
It goes without saying that I am not against any consumption of wood energy, but against the illusion of an all-out neutrality which would encourage the forest to be considered as capable of replacing conventional fuels in "open bar" mode.
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Re: Are forests yesterday's charcoal?




by Macro » 17/05/21, 13:46

Only what has been forgotten is new ... : Cheesy:
https://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/1881362471.htm
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Re: ARE FORESTS THE COAL OF YESTERDAY?




by Did67 » 17/05/21, 13:47

OKAY.

But if that's it, the fact remains that knocking it out based on it is a monumental intellectual swindle. Because it is to omit all the rest, which is essential when one speaks about balance C - the recycling in a step of time say "human" or "compatible with humanity". I'm talking about wood.

One is CO2 recyclable, if there is no change in the allocation of spaces. The other one doesn't. So such that, without qualification, I maintain that this is monumental bullshit.

Unless there is an argument to the contrary.

I took precautions to prevent those I would classify as "Khmer Green tendencies" from too simply disassembling my thinking. So I propped it up ...

Yes, the clearcut is a disaster, but in France, the space in question will still remain forest. Try to destroy a forest and you will see the reaction of the administration. The forest is almost sacred (except for a few highways and a few villas of well-placed people). So I regret that we indoctrinate people with information that is nothing but fakes.

It is growing forests that capture CO2. Not a natural climax forest, which is in equilibrium!

But of course, it's more efficient if you immobilize the wood. But not all wood is lumber. Go explain that to an eco-bobo who has never held a chainsaw (I had this privilege).

But yes, we have to think about what we are doing. As with everything. The vegetable garden or the way to get around. The choice of TV programs. Magazines or books that you read ...

Yes, debilitating thoughts are gaining ground even faster than the forest receding.
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Re: ARE FORESTS THE COAL OF YESTERDAY?




by Did67 » 17/05/21, 13:53

Ahmed wrote:... the illusion of all-round neutrality which would encourage considering the forest as capable of replacing conventional fuels in "open bar" mode.


Explain to me where is the illusion?

For the rest, a "macro" reflection on the flows in question answers amply, without the use of "fakes": no, the natural growth of the forest does not allow us to satisfy our energy gluttony. And I agree with you on the warning. But not at the cost of a lie ("illusion").

When I bought my pellet boiler, I made a "macro" estimate of the durability issue, even if at the time, with two or three dozen boilers installed in France, that did not matter.

When I promote the "Potager du Laesseux", I have broad "replicability" in my sights: where would all this hay come from?

In a finite world, questioning limits is a BA BA.
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Re: ARE FORESTS THE COAL OF YESTERDAY?




by Macro » 17/05/21, 13:58

Did67 wrote:
But of course, it's more efficient if you immobilize the wood. But not all wood is lumber. Go explain that to an eco-bobo who has never held a chainsaw (I had this privilege).



Hello mister the merchant ... You told me that to cut my wood I would go 10 times faster with a chainsaw ..... But no, I swear to you ... It goes very slowly ... And that is it heavy ...

The merchant takes the chainsaw, inspects the chain the quide .... RAS .... He pulls the string twice the chainsaw starts ... And the guy jumps up screaming ... I swear she wasn't doing it this noise... : Cheesy: : Cheesy: : Cheesy:
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Re: ARE FORESTS THE COAL OF YESTERDAY?




by Christophe » 17/05/21, 14:07

Gentlemen, let's calmly resume the basics, right?

Carbon_cycle2.svg.png
Cycle_du_carbone2.svg.png (251.3 KiB) Viewed 2150 times


Plants capture 10 times more than fossil emissions ... even if deforestation (which includes wood combustion) represents more than 30% of fossil emissions!

1.9 -62 = -60.1 Gt / year ... The results are ULTRA POSITIVE!

But as we must add animal respiration, neither the bio nor the hydrosphere are sufficient to offset fossil emissions in the balance sheet. But we suspected a little : Cheesy:

On the other hand, what is the arrow of the 90 Gt / year of hydro which goes up towards the atmosphere? I thought the oceans were, by far, the number one carbon sink? With this rise, the result is only 2 Gt / year ... far behind plants then? : Shock:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_du_carbone
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Re: Are forests yesterday's charcoal?




by Ahmed » 17/05/21, 14:12

Did, you already agree that the idea of ​​massive substitution is an illusion, it's already good (but I never doubted it)! I would like to point out that I have never spoken of clear cuts (which, at least in France, will become increasingly rare, since it is a system that technically no longer works).
Remains that the quantity of CO2 per unit of heat is greater in the case of wood (than this Co2 was stored previously and that it will be later is of course not debated) and that CO2 of wood is the same as CO2 of coal or petroleum. You will grant me that the time step between consumption and forest restoration seriously undermines this famous neutrality ...
As for these famous climax forests which are in equilibrium, they no longer exist for a long time, while an adult forest stores more carbon than another at the juvenile stage.
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Re: Are forests yesterday's charcoal?




by moinsdewatt » 19/05/21, 01:06

WOOD-ENERGY: WHERE DOES THE WOOD USED TO PRODUCE RENEWABLE HEAT COME FROM?

16 April 2021

Praised for meeting France's climate objectives, would the use of wood as a source of heat present a risk of deforestation? According to data from public bodies, the wood-energy sector does not harm the growth of forests, nor the preservation of their diversity.

In the family of renewable energies, the hydropower-solar-wind mix is ​​often cited as the top three. But to meet the challenges of the energy and ecological transition in France, the biomass sector is playing an increasingly dominant role, in particular via wood energy. “Wood already represents, in France, 50% of the [renewable] energy consumed to produce heat, underlines Emilie Machefaux, head of the forest service at Ademe. The multi-year energy program also places ambitious objectives on wood, since it provides for an increase in the consumption of heat produced from biomass by 20% by 2023 and by 30 to 40%. by 2028, compared to 2017. ”The increased use of wood to produce energy largely explains the rise of biomass, the first renewable energy in France, according to Ademe. If the use of wood as a fuel dates back several millennia, the progress made in automation and optimization now makes it a popular resource for its positive effects on energy independence, the reduction of greenhouse gases, the protection of the environment, the development of local jobs that cannot be relocated, already underlined the researcher Sylvie Pellerin-Drion in 2013.

Despite its “precious assets”, the wood-energy sector is sometimes associated with the phenomenon of deforestation at work on other continents. Faced with the ravages of the indiscriminate exploitation of certain forests in South America, Africa and Southeast Asia, some are wondering about the supply of this sector in France and its sustainability. On this subject, a first observation emerges: according to data from Agreste (site specializing in agricultural statistics), the production of forest chips used for heating only mobilizes 7% of the total harvest of marketed timber. in France. As Sylvie Pellerin-Drion explains, wood energy does indeed arrive at the very end of the value chain since it concerns wood that cannot be used for other purposes. It represents, in fact, only one of the many segments of the uses of wood in France. “Wood for energy is not a sought-after end use in forestry, it is only an operating by-product. […] No French forest is intended solely for the production of wood energy, ”recalls the Syndicate of Renewable Energies (SER). He added that “an under-exploited, aging, unmaintained forest, in which wood accumulates is more sensitive to disturbances in its ecosystem”.

The various silvicultural operations carried out within the framework of forest management lead to regular cuts. Thinning consists in particular of eliminating certain injured or diseased trees within a stand, in order to provide the space, light and water necessary for the development of healthy trees. The product of these thinning or sanitary cuts will be valued in the form of energy wood. The latter also comes from the use of bark, sawn or planing from the processing of lumber and industrial timber. End-of-life wood and wood waste are also used.

French forests: good health to preserve

In France, unlike other regions of the world, forest exploitation is strictly framed by the forest code which recognizes the general interest of the protection and enhancement of woods and forests as well as reforestation within the framework of sustainable management. The National Forestry Office (Onf) is responsible, as part of the public service, to support owners in the development of a forest management document that provides for all interventions - cutting, renewal, ecological works or even public reception work - over a period of 10 to 20 years. Private forests of more than 25 ha are also subject to the obligation to obtain a sustainable management document.

Forest certifications are complementary to the forest code, offering additional guarantees in terms of sustainable management. Not compulsory, they are part of a voluntary process implemented by some foresters. In the metropolitan area, two international labels exist: the FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) and the PEFC (Program for the Recognition of Forest Certifications). In 2018 in mainland France, 5,6 million hectares of forest areas were PEFC certified and 56 hectares were FSC certified, making the hexagonal model a benchmark for many foreign countries. The fourth largest wooded area in the European Union (second including the overseas departments and territories), France has seen its forest area increase year after year, even as the wood supply is also increasing. With 000 million hectares, this area has grown by more than 16,9% since 50 and has even doubled since 1908. Over the past 1820 years, it has continued to grow by 35 hectares per year, a rate that 'has not weakened over the past ten years, according to the IGN (National Institute for Geographic and Forest Information) in its 80 forest inventory.

If the sustainable exploitation of French forests does not harm their expansion or their quality, does it not encourage the planting of coniferous trees? The orientation of a forest plot towards deciduous or coniferous species depends largely on the quality of the soil and the constraints of the territory. The owner makes his choice based, in particular, on the lumber products he wishes to promote. The Onf reminds us that conifers, very popular for construction, are not suitable for heating. "It is preferable to favor hardwoods, which are denser than conifers," says the organization. In fact, the expansion of deciduous stands in French forests, which cover 71% of the surface, is more marked than that of conifers, and their respective proportions have not changed in a century.

To continue to ensure the good health of French forests in the face of climate change while helping to combat its effects, in December the Ministry of Agriculture launched a new forest renewal system as part of the France Relance plan. A desire to go further in the preservation and adaptation of forests, but also of biodiversity, soils and all the wealth they contain.

https://lenergeek.com/2021/04/16/bois-e ... ouvelable/
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Re: Are forests yesterday's charcoal?




by izentrop » 19/05/21, 08:34

It's window dressing, because there is a big kitchen behind with juicy subsidies, reality https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/en/news/recent ... -jrc-study
https://www.canopee-asso.org/coupes-rases/
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