Dryer with heat pump, good idea?

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swift2540
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Dryer with heat pump, good idea?




by swift2540 » 28/06/11, 23:35

Good evening everyone,
here I have to replace my condensation dryer.
While searching a little, I saw that a new energy class had appeared: the A ++++ class is A-40%.

It would be (conditional because I do not know) an internal heat pump in the dryer which would reduce consumption per cycle from ~ 4kwh (class B, traditional for condensation) to ~ 1.50kwh.

The price is certainly higher (+ 250 €), but given the price of electricity in Belgium (~ 0.20 € / kwh), this will quickly be amortized.

Apparently, the heat pump recycles the heat from the laundry, so no heat is taken from the room.

Anyone know or use these kinds of devices?
Is this a reliable technique over time?

Your informed opinions are welcome!
(No need to tell me that it is better to dry outdoors, I know, but when it rains you have to dry it anyway ...)

Example of dryer http://www.vandenborre.be/fr/seche-linge/siemens-wt-46-w-370-fg
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by Christophe » 28/06/11, 23:41

Uh I thought that all the condensing dryers had a fridge group (so a heat pump!) Since to condense, you have to cool ... then the one with a heat pump must simply recover the heat from the cold group in one way or another. 'another. After I'm not a doctor, you are a dryer!

Now the most economical dryer is the clothesline, I dry 100% of my laundry inside ... no need to do it outside (and I have no CMV )!

What do you think?

Also, beware of manufacturers' consumption, see the measurements that we are doing on washing machines and dishwashers: https://www.econologie.com/forums/lave-vaiss ... 10814.html it only sticks halfway ... : Idea: :?:
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by swift2540 » 28/06/11, 23:54

Christophe wrote:Uh I thought that all the condensing dryers had a fridge group (so a heat pump!) Since to condense, you have to cool ... then the one with a heat pump must simply recover the heat from the cold group in one way or another. 'another. After I'm not a doctor, you are a dryer!

Well no, the "ordinary" dryer sends hot air into the room + hot water recovered in the condenser.
Am not a specialist either, that's why I ask for opinions.
Christophe wrote:Now the most economical dryer is the clothesline, I dry 100% of my laundry inside ... no need to do it outside (and I have no CMV )!

What do you think?

Of course, except that when you live in the city, there is no room to dry inside, hence the "obligation" of the dryer. But as I wrote, weather permitting it's out on ropes.

Christophe wrote:Also, beware of manufacturers' consumption, see the measurements that we are doing on washing machines and dishwashers: https://www.econologie.com/forums/lave-vaiss ... 10814.html it only sticks halfway ... : Idea: :?:

In my example, I took 2 models (with and without heat pump) from the same manufacturer.
So if the conso are "hacked", I guess they are the same for all models. : Mrgreen:
I'm following the discussion on the dishwasher, I need to renovate my kitchen. But for the moment no dishwasher, so no opinion ...
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by Christophe » 29/06/11, 00:12

swift2540 wrote:Well no, the "ordinary" dryer sends hot air into the room + hot water recovered in the condenser.


Well yes but how does the condenser work? It takes cold so that it condenses ... then to make cold there are not 36 solutions:
a) fridge cycle
b) peltier / termoelectricity
c) absorption (if necessary adsorption)

b) and c) it would surprise me that this is used in a dryer ...

Any dehumidifier (from 150-200 €) it is a fridge cycle therefore a heat pump with compressor, and pressure reducer-exchanger (with or without reheating of the supply air, in any case the calories are recovered indirectly in the room).

There have been some recently with the Peltier effect (sold for their silent operation but performance far below those with the fridge cycle).

So in my opinion, selling the Heat Pump in the dryer is an abuse ...

In fact I bet it is more economical to use a dehumidifier in the room where you dry your laundry (if it really takes too long to dry) than to use a condenser dryer !!

swift2540 wrote:Of course, except that when you live in the city, there is no room to dry inside, hence the "obligation" of the dryer. But as I wrote, weather permitting it's out on ropes.


Ah and how was humanity doing before?

I also lived in town, 50m², we were doing very well with the clothes horse and it was in Brittany ... so the rain level was higher than the average ... (at the level of belgium probably :D)

Most young couples do very well WITHOUT dryers ... after I understand that your girlfriend does not want to let her panties dry in the living room in front of your friends ... : Cheesy:

Christophe wrote:I'm following the discussion on the dishwasher, I need to renovate my kitchen. But for the moment no dishwasher, so no opinion ...


Well, provide a connection to the DHW (well, unless you have electric DHW ...)
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by swift2540 » 29/06/11, 00:40

Christophe wrote:Well yes but how does the condenser work?

No idea : Cry:
Christophe wrote:In fact I bet it is more economical to use a dehumidifier in the room where you dry your laundry (if it really takes too long to dry) than to use a condenser dryer !!

Except that I am sorely lacking m of strings inside

Christophe wrote:Ah and how was humanity doing before?

I also lived in town, 50m², we were doing very well with the clothes horse and it was in Brittany ... so the rain level was higher than the average ... (at the level of belgium probably :D)
Most young couples do very well WITHOUT dryers ...

Young couples yes, but 4 children = 5 pairs of bed sheets to dry on the weekend in addition to the "normal" laundry (night current "obliges") : Shock:
Hence the lack of space ...

Christophe wrote:Well, provide a connection to the DHW (well, unless you have electric DHW ...)

The DHW tank is just under the kitchen, 3m of hose max : Cheesy:
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by chatelot16 » 29/06/11, 01:14

the normal condensation dryer is a little better than the exhaust dryer but does not have a heat pump: the relative cold of the ambient air is sufficient to cool and condense part of the humidity of the exhaust air , this condensation slightly reduces energy consumption

condensation with heat pump is much better! it should allow if it was done well to condense all the humidity, and to heat with a minimum energy
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by dedeleco » 29/06/11, 02:41

At this time of heat wave, the sun heats the laundry well and dries it quickly !!

We can improve by making a solar dryer with natural fireplace.

Otherwise, if the air is dry, 50%, no need to heat to dry, the air circulation at room temperature is enough to dry, while not being too pressed.

If the air at ambient T is saturated with humidity, it must be heated, for example with the sun, (flat air sensor with circulation with chimney), or heat pump, less ecological, (which should be coupled with the fridge that heats on its external exchanger), to decrease the humidity then becoming weak and therefore dry it.

Finally, this hot and humid air leaving the dryer to be cooled to ambient T in the humid air condenses by returning the heat of evaporation to the enclosure where it condenses without the need for a heat pump !!

So by managing well, depending on the ambient humidity, the heat pump is useless, almost an absurdity, if you couple with solar heating, or the hot grill behind your fridge, avoiding being in a hurry !!
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by bobono » 29/06/11, 09:27

and to heat with a minimum energy = False of course since the hot and the cold stays in the room.
For condensation, simply passing hot, very humid air through water is enough to condense.
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by Gaston » 29/06/11, 10:02

Christophe wrote:Well yes but how does the condenser work? It takes cold so that it condenses ... then to make cold there are not 36 solutions:
a) fridge cycle
b) peltier / termoelectricity
c) absorption (if necessary adsorption)
By the way, most washing machines with drying option use cold water to condense :?
Hence a frightening consumption of water : Evil:

I do not believe that this is the case with current dryers (in washing machines, it is rather a problem of space and the idea that the drying function is used only rarely).
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by Christophe » 29/06/11, 11:06

Ah yes, cold water as a source of condensation ... how many liters does it suck per cycle?

Good as we dry a little on the cold source, I went for a walk on wiki: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A8che-linge

Dryers are also distinguished by the method of water drainage.

* Evacuation dryer: the water vapor discharged by the machine is evacuated by a duct to the outside or to a ventilated room. The drying time is shorter.
* The condensation dryer: the ambient air sucked in by the turbine passes through a condenser before being heated then ventilated in the drum. As the temperature rises in the drum, the water in the laundry turns into vapor and again passes through the condenser where it condenses. It is then collected in a tank or evacuated by a pipe.

Evacuation devices are cheaper, but the connection constraint does not allow them to be installed in all types of accommodation.


It's funny because the description of the condensation dryer is exactly that of a dehumidifier ...

Of all household appliances, clothes dryers are the biggest consumers of energy. A dryer consumes an average of 400 to 500 kWh per year, so it alone represents 15% of the average annual electricity consumption of a household, excluding heating. Which is considerable.

(...)

The cheapest dryers on the French market in 2006 [4] are of energy class D or C. They are therefore an important source of energy waste and are also widely criticized by consumer associations [5] and environmental defense movements that recommend the wire drying method.

(...)

The best energy efficiency is currently obtained by the use of the principle of the heat pump which allows to reach in Europe the energy class A [1]. This type of dryer has been introduced on the market since 2006 by a large brand which innovates by introducing a heat pump to generate the energy necessary for drying. The device is certainly more economical in energy, but is more expensive to buy.


Condensing SLs consume MORE and cost MORE EXPENSES (about double!) Than those with evacuation!

According to this information, the cold source of condensing SL ... is the ambient air!

Drying processes

Evacuation dryer
- The ambient air in the room is sucked in by a turbine.
- The turbine propels this air on resistors to heat it.
- The heated air enters the drum, passes through the laundry, and takes care of its humidity.
- The hot and humid air passes through the filter and deposits the fluff there.
- It is then evacuated by a sheath towards the outside.

Condensation dryer
- The ambient air in the room is sucked in by a turbine.
- It passes through part of the condenser while cooling it.
- The turbine propels this air on resistors to heat it.
- The heated air enters the drum, passes through the laundry, and takes care of its humidity.
- The hot and humid air passes through the filter and deposits the fluff there.
- It then crosses the other part of the condenser (also called heat exchanger) cooled by the ambient air.
- The condensed water is directed to a collecting tank, but can also be via the drain pipe (same as that of the washing machine).


http://www.universconso.com/index.asp?I ... us_menu=75

Finally an SL is just a drum, a motor, a heating element and some accessories ... : Shock:

My opinion is that there is a systematic overcharging on the SL: it is simpler than a washing machine (and especially that a dehumidifier at 150 euros) but the industrialists must say that a household that can pay 500 kWh just to dry your clothes is a rather high purchasing power house so you can inflate prices ... :| Surely also because it is a device which can enter the "luxury household appliances" ...

In short, I continue to think (that if we have room) that using a dehumidifier is a more economical solution!
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