Urgent electrical problem, circuit breaker jumps

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jonule
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by jonule » 13/08/08, 10:18

Hello,
if you want to test the ground it is quite simple, you take a ground wire (25 mm²) which you connect to some ground of a catch (the large stud which leaves a catch, attention nevertheless). or bathroom piping for example, which must be connected to the ground (like any metallic mass, heating pipes, stainless steel worktop etc ...) and in short you connect it to a stake that you plant in the earth: I saw when I arrived at my house an old electrical installation with porcelain fused paper wires, each socket group was connected to the earth via a wire connected to a stake, I had counted 3 or 4 ...

tip: the perforated washing machine cages are excellent ground stakes.
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boubka
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by boubka » 13/08/08, 11:16

I bet you your pb comes either from the fridge or from the boiler pump (experience speaks for itself)
it can still be leakage current it is not because the diff 30 mma does not jump that there is no leakage current.
your main circuit breaker is a 500 mm diff but it can be faster than the 30 (it often happens in the event of a large leak)
for the earth it is on that it would be preferable to have at most 100 ohms
an economic test is to connect a 220v 20mma indicator bulb between phase and earth (it must trigger 30mma)
on the other hand drops the incomprehensible and dangerous anneries of jonule and loping
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jonule
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by jonule » 13/08/08, 11:39

??
well it's not an annerie, it's a grounding test, I had checked it on a washing machine on which I was taking chestnuts.

as I said, if he does not feel able to take the earth on a socket (general off for the manipulation, a domino on the big socket terminal), he can connect to the piping because normally it is set to earth (equipotential bonding) is simpler.
I do not see what is incomprehensible?

but hey if there is a test + simple I say not of course ... but you find where, boubka, a light lamp 220V? -)

for the stake a large metal, which must be pushed in by tapping on it it always sinks ... but it is true that grounding is an art on a ground which does not lend itself to it. ..

good luck in your investigations!
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Bibiphoque
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by Bibiphoque » 13/08/08, 11:56

jonule wrote:??
... but it is true that earthing is an art on a ground which does not lend itself to it ...

good luck in your investigations!


Hello,
It reminds me of my first "official" job, assembling lightning rods, we had to get land of less than one ohm, not always easy, especially in schist regions, sometimes more than 30 M of rods in the ground to get there. ..
@+
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This is not because we always said that it is impossible that we should not try :)
boubka
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by boubka » 13/08/08, 11:57

putting a stake doesn't necessarily give you good soil,
connect you to the piping either as far as the original earth is not good more nothing tells you that the equipotential and effective liason or even water supply pipe in per
I don't see where the test is
if you have a leaky current you will send the juice on the pipes and if mom cooks on the sink or takes a bath then have ....
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jonule
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by jonule » 13/08/08, 12:08

ok, i will go more slowly ...

I said "you plant a stake (a drum cage washing machine is perfect) of earth ... in the earth": until then all is well; adding an earth and checking that the problem no longer appears reveals a problem with earthing ok ?!

Well ..
then, to connect the earth of the house to this earth, take earth wire: 25mm² section (or 5 wires section 5mm² ;-), connect it on the one hand to the planted earth stake, ok?

and for the other side, the earth of the house:
> either you take an earth from a socket outlet: it is the large stud that comes out of the socket, easy to connect with a domino
> either you get an earth elsewhere: and this is where I say that normally, if it has made its installation up to standards as it says, it must have the earth connected to the pipes in the room bathroom, it is an elementary and mandatory safety for installers, like everything that is metallic in a house: metal lighting etc ...

it seems + easy and - dangerous to get caught on copper piping either still new without paint or by scraping slightly with a serflex type collar, through the bathroom window to outside: I bet it is ;-)

good it is clear I hope :D
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boubka
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by boubka » 13/08/08, 12:23

add a ground and check that the problem no longer appears reveals a problem with grounding ok?!

no ok if improved soil the bp persists

avoid talking about elec problem related to security (eg land) when knowledge in the field is more than limited
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jonule
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by jonule » 13/08/08, 13:04

...
and here again taken for a (jo) draw : roll:

boubka wrote:add a ground and check that the problem no longer appears reveals a problem with grounding ok?!

no ok if improved soil the bp persists


well yes we agree: it allows to see if the problem comes from the ground, and it is one of the tracks to take, precisely what he wanted to do;

I said that following his remark "any good idea to take", I find it anointing to risk connecting a bulb between phase and earth ... well each his thing.

in the safety devices, it is not only the earth to be effectively checked, there are the 30mA differentials to be seen; my first job was to bring the electrical panels back to standard, I still know what I'm talking about Boubka ;-)

even if the test is more a "trick" than a pro procedure, I admit it.

in this regard it seems to me that the new standard NFC15.100 no longer accepts 10A circuit breakers on lighting, everything must be 16A ;-)
ditto everything that is metallic, copper piping (water) or metal (heating), metal worktop in the kitchen etc ...
any outlet (circuit breaker)

Finally, I think that the concern for correct earthing is the responsibility of the installer.

also that if the problem is not isolated by lowering the circuit breakers it is not from the panel but from a problem of earth or power used:
16A on a socket circuit gives 220x16 = 3520 Watts of availability, if the connected devices consume + that the counter does not accept (27A) the general jumps it is obvious.
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buquet
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by buquet » 13/08/08, 13:35

Hello

it's nice the old houses in old renovated stones but I discover things every day.

well I have already connected my second earth stake this morning near a rainwater drain the earth is raining wet and I have not too much trouble pushing the stake. when the electrician will be in the corner he will check the ohms with his tellurometer

I then contact edf they told me that with all the devices I have in the house plus the cottage I must have a power problem so I made an appointment they come to increase the power to 12 kw
we'll see if it solves part of the problem

in addition this morning I just realized that I did not have hot water so I think that the relay edf is hs
since the installation of the balloon was changed recently and has been checked by a professional

edf it's zero my balloon worked very well before in the car so it's that I had a lot of off and full hours now he supports me that I don't have those hours so no relay it's blank they do not even know their installation
it worked very well before so there is necessarily a relay which is hs it's blur their thing
in any case, they come on Monday morning to do all of this.

what do you guys think
and thank you again for your reactions and your advice it's really cool from you thank you again
if you ever had other ideas

to answer the problem of earth everything but devices are connected the electrician to check with his tellurometer so no chance of taking a chestnut unless a resistance from a loose machine
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jonule
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by jonule » 13/08/08, 14:27

oh well if you exceed your consumption of 27 A (normally 30A) it is sure that it will jump!
30 A x 220 V = 6600 W = 6kW contract

you can go from 6 to 9, rather than going direct to 12! because the subscription is much more expensive. the transition from off-peak to full-time was free 5 years ago, now it has to be paid for with their privatization ...

if you want you display your table with the departures, I'm sure you can rearrange your devices to stay in your 6kw if it is?

you must make a list of your devices with their respective power, and place them on a plan of your rooms (roughly speaking, the measurement scale does not matter).
then you have to know which socket is connected to such a circuit breaker outlet, knowing that you have 8 per 16A circuit breaker maximum sockets, and that the total power must not exceed 220 V x 16 A = 3520 watts. if you have 4000 watts the 16A circuit breaker outlet will jump, but not the general; the general will jump if you have more than 27 A x 220 V = 5940 watts.

you can check it with very greedy devices eventually.

Finally, do not let yourself be taken in by the guys from EDF, they will offer you toast : Cheesy:

do you have electric heating?
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