Innovation Sodium ION batteries

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Exnihiloest
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Re: Innovation Sodium ION batteries




by Exnihiloest » 04/05/21, 16:42

Do not get carried away!

"the sodium-ion battery is more durable than the lithium-ion, while being 2 to 5 times more powerful per unit mass"is the theory, but:
"the amount of energy stored per unit mass is still 40% less than the best lithium-ion"

"Tiamat plans to build its first sodium-ion battery production line in Amiens in 2020."
We are in 2021, would there be a production line?

Sodium is abundant, to be sure, but not in a free state or easily extractable, and raw materials rarely represent the most important cost of manufactured products.

Finally, charging very quickly is indeed interesting, but you should not hope to be able to do it faster than currently for an electric car in your garage, where time is already limited by the maximum current that can be drawn from an installation. of particular.

For the moment, therefore, we are more in the commercial argument and in the search for investors than in the technical one. Techno may have a future, it's very possible, but announcements like that I've seen quite a few in the past that haven't worked.
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Re: Innovation Sodium ION batteries




by jean.caissepas » 05/05/21, 15:40

Ahmed wrote:Assuming that it was of some interest, there would be nothing to fear from a buyout by an oil group: the goal of this industry is not to sell oil, but to make money, only that. either by selling petroleum or batteries is absolutely irrelevant.


This refers to the first patents on Li-Ion which would have (from what I read, but I no longer have the source) were bought out by an interest group which sold licenses, but with a ban on exceed a battery> 10kWh (OK for phones and laptops, KO for electric cars or very limited).

An automaker was fined $ 30 million or $ 300 million for failing to meet that limit.

This is why the EVs with great autonomy only came out recently, after the 20 years of validity of this patent.

Otherwise an interesting read on the French creator of LMP batteries, sold to Quebecers, then to China which would have used it to develop LiFePo batteries:
https://www.franceinter.fr/sciences/mic ... es-autolib
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Re: Innovation Sodium ION batteries




by GuyGadeboisTheBack » 05/05/21, 16:59

More portable bombs. Sodium is highly flammable and explosive ... :frown:
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Re: Innovation Sodium ION batteries




by Exnihiloest » 05/05/21, 19:03

GuyGadeboisLeRetour wrote:More portable bombs. Sodium is highly flammable and explosive ... :frown:


Especially in table salt : roll:

There are those who have not understood "ION", however written in large terms in the subject, nor that it was never a question of pure sodium electrodes.

The alarmism comes from two sources: the non-understanding who are afraid of everything because they cannot decode anything, normal, the world is a great mystery for them therefore a danger, and the manipulators who exacerbate the fear and encourage to relay their alarmism for ideological ends, which the former obviously do since they do not understand anything. It becomes second nature to them, with Pavlovian reflexes in the face of any novelty.
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Re: Innovation Sodium ION batteries




by moinsdewatt » 08/05/21, 00:14

Ahmed wrote:Assuming that it was of some interest, there would be nothing to fear from a buyout by an oil group: the goal of this industry is not to sell oil, but to make money, only that. either by selling petroleum or batteries is absolutely irrelevant.


Absolutely, like Total, which bought SAFT in the batteries. It was just 5 years ago.
https://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/t ... ft.N390182
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Re: Innovation Sodium ION batteries




by jean.caissepas » 04/08/21, 01:47

CATL has validated new Na-Ion batteries at 160 Wh / kg, and expects 200 Wh / kg soon.
80% charge in 15 minutes ..., long life ..., lower price than LFP (30 to 50 $ / kWh expected! : Shock: )

Link : https://pushevs.com/2021/07/29/catl-rev ... n-battery/
In 2023, OEMs for EVs and others will be able to equip their toys.

TIAMAT has just been dubbed without ever having marketed his invention ... :(
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Re: Innovation Sodium ION batteries




by phil59 » 04/08/21, 22:04

Interesting all that.

On the other hand, charging quickly, in your garage, who cares!
A stupid and nasty power outlet, in one night, we usually put 100 to 150 km back in the car.

On the other hand, on the road, it can change everything.

Charging in 5 minutes is no use either.

When you stop at a terminal, on a long trip, usually you're not just charging.

Take the opportunity to stop wee, have a coffee, etc ...

Less than 15 minutes, no, not much to do less, often it's 20-30 minutes ....

But already, with EV, we can reset from 20% to 80% in some EV, in 30 minutes, or even less.
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Re: Innovation Sodium ION batteries




by Exnihiloest » 05/08/21, 18:17

phil59 wrote:... When you stop at a terminal, on a long trip, generally, you don't just charge.

Take the opportunity to stop wee, have a coffee, etc ...
...

This is the problem for those who hate concentration points, such as highway areas. When traveling in the summer, I get off the highway to have a picnic for 30 to 45 minutes in a quiet green area, and eventually I refuel in 2 minutes in a small supermarket station in a local town.
Currently I therefore do not see any alternative in electric road. The charging time will always be prohibitive. Only an improvement in the range, say from 1000 to 1500 km of highway, allowing to recharge quietly at night, could be a partial solution.
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Re: Innovation Sodium ION batteries




by jean.caissepas » 05/08/21, 23:33

Exnihiloest wrote:This is the problem for those who hate concentration points, such as highway areas. When traveling in the summer, I get off the highway to have a picnic for 30 to 45 minutes in a quiet green area, and eventually I refuel in 2 minutes in a small supermarket station in a local town.
Currently I therefore do not see any alternative in electric road. The charging time will always be prohibitive. Only an improvement in the range, say from 1000 to 1500 km of highway, allowing to recharge quietly at night, could be a partial solution.


If you drive a Tesla (and soon other brands, because the Super Chargeurs will be open to other brands at the end of 2021), the charging areas are almost always off the motorway (not far from a exit / entrance), with shops nearby and often something to eat + pee break

On Tuesday, I took a 30 minute break at the Orange SC to relax my legs, find the washroom and have a coffee. This was enough to go from 10 to 90% battery and I was able to finish my trip of more than 500 km quietly (with the basic 3 SR + model)
It was not a green area, but not "crowded" with people either.
16 charging points, with a third of use = no waiting in addition to recharging.

It's incredible to see people demanding EVs with more than 1000 km of autonomy when they have already left in their life in gasoline VTs with 400 km of autonomy without this causing them the slightest problem ... :(
These are the same people who require the comfort of an SUV to go to work every day, all alone at the wheel of a 2-ton vehicle ... : Evil:

In short, we did not leave the hostel with too many people who do not want to make the effort to lift a finger because it would disrupt their comfort habits too much ... (I am removing those who do not have the means, nor the possibility of switching to VE)

I rediscovered the pleasure of driving with this car, in an impressive silence and serenity!
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Re: Innovation Sodium ION batteries




by izentrop » 15/04/23, 12:21

I don't know when it's from
edit "dateModified":"2022-08-21
there has been a 17% rise in the price of sodium carbonate since 2010[16]. The tile.

But at the same time, the price of lithium carbonate has increased by 151%. So today, the main raw material of sodium-ion batteries is 86 times cheaper than that of lithium-ion batteries.

Wait.

Does that mean that everything went even better than expected?

Not really.

Because the problem facing the sodium-ion battery today is a major problem: the manufacturers of lithium-ion batteries have waged a relentless war on the cost per kWh of their batteries.

So much so that despite the cost of raw materials being much higher, lithium-ion batteries are today less expensive than sodium-ion batteries: 168 €/kWh for the most widely used lithium-ion battery technology, against 223 €/kWh for a sodium-ion battery[17] .

32% difference is a lot.
https://construire-sa-moto-electrique.o ... m-ion#prix

This leaves a margin of progress that the Chinese did not hesitate to cross...
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