No more live batteries Ultra-capacitors!

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Obelix
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by Obelix » 04/05/09, 10:32

Hello,

I see that there are many dreamers who are agitated : Cheesy:
Well, if we took a few outlandish hypotheses:
A 50 CV car is not bad!
This requires a power of around 36.800 Watts / s
Let’s say that we know how to make supercapacitors which “hold” 200 V service that requires an intensity of 184 A to have the power.
Let's see the capacitor necessary to store energy for one hour of operation:
Q = I xt = 0.5 x C x V² => C = 2 x I x T / V² => 2 x 184 x 3600 / 40000
Which gives about 34 Farads. As we do not know how to "empty" a capacitor entirely, it will take double to be able to use the energy correctly. We will take 50 Farads by trusting the electronics engineers .....

In summary: to have 50 CV you need 50 Farads at 200 V per hour of operation

At present the ultras hold 5 Volts!
It will therefore require 40 in series for 200 Volts and therefore 40 times that in // to have the capa. Or 1600 capas of 50 Farads. It makes a nice suitcase : Cheesy:

Conclusion: it takes a big techno advance to think of achieving this!

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by Remundo » 04/05/09, 12:02

Hello everybody,

Supercaps are a bit of the holy grail of hybrid or electric cars ...

I now see that they are called ultra-capacitors.

Too bad it is not more developed ...

I believe that Honda had raised the subject for the FCX and also the Insight.

Since then, no news to my knowledge :|
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I Citro
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by I Citro » 04/05/09, 12:45

: Arrow: Current projects rely on the storage of electrons in nanostructures (carbon, I believe).
Energy density looks very promising. :|

"Electric" storage in a capacitor will necessarily be more efficient than "electrochemical" storage in a battery, whatever its technology.
The main issue remains THE PRICE. :?

Currently, manufacturers are hybridizing the electrical management of cars.

Examples: Bolorré is considered a trimode hydride.
- 1 / Main energy stored in Lithium "LMP" batteries.
- 2 / Peak energy stored in supercapacities
- 3 / Accessory energy supplied as a backup by photovoltaic panels.
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by bernardd » 14/12/09, 10:52

Hello,

Your post is a bit dated, but I came across it because I came across this site a little by chance:
http://www.vina.co.kr/new_html/eng/product/info.asp?cate1=10&cate2=15

with capacitors from 800Farads to 2,3V ..

Obelix wrote:This requires a power of around 36.800 Watts / s
... to store energy for one hour of operation:
Q = I xt = 0.5 x C x V² => C = 2 x I x T / V² => 2 x 184 x 3600 / 40000
Which gives about 34 Farads. As we do not know how to "empty" a capacitor entirely, it will take double to be able to use the energy correctly. We will take 50 Farads by trusting the electronics engineers .....


In this case, 800F at 2,3V represents 0,5x800x5,29 = 2116Wxsecond.

If we put 100 to reach 230VDC, then we have 211,6KWs, or 58,7KWh (211 / 3,6) or rather half if we want to work from 100VDC to 230VDC ...

In volume, it is a cylinder 35mm in diameter by 70mm long. Arranged in a 10x10 square, this makes a maximum of 350mmx350mm by 70mm high.

It starts to be reasonable for the size, right? In addition, we could slide them into the tube of the frame of a bicycle ;-)

I asked the prices and the mass ....

But a 10V 2,5F is sold at $ 4 there: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=746

So not price level, but I do not believe that there is still mass production :-)
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by Obelix » 14/12/09, 11:47

bernardd wrote:Hello,


with capacitors from 800Farads to 2,3V ..


In this case, 800F at 2,3V represents 0,5x800x5,29 = 2116Wxsecond.

If we put 100 to arrive at 230VDC, then we have 211,6KWs, or 58,7KWh (211 / 3,6) or rather half if you want to work from 100VDC to 230VDC ...


So not price level, but I do not believe that there is still mass production :-)


Hello,

Sorry but I think there is a little mistake!
That's 211/3600 or a factor of 1000 => 58.7 Wh roughly 20 minutes of autonomy for an electric bike!
It's already not bad, but I hope we can go further!

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by bernardd » 14/12/09, 12:08

Thank you ! I was looking, because this result seemed too good to me! But it is already not bad I find, especially with capacitors, we can easily recharge them when braking ...

Fortunately you are carefully :-)
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by I Citro » 14/12/09, 12:23

: Arrow: As it stands, the supercapa are intended for "heavy duty" applications. Heavy goods vehicles, construction machinery ...
In these applications, their extreme constraints make them more reliable than batteries and the constraints of space, cooling and management are lower.

For a bicycle, electronic management poses sacred problems of size and performance ... The best lithium batteries with good electronics are superior.
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by bernardd » 14/12/09, 12:42

If you can recharge by pedaling, descending, or in 20s on a socket, and with a lifespan which is that of the bicycle, I am ready to lose a little in efficiency of electronic circuit ;-)

I don't remember who put a link to a thesis at EPFL on another discussion (thanks to him, sorry lost the source :-(), but it presents a concept of DC / DC converter which seems more effective than the conventional versions ...

[url] http://search.epfl.ch/web.do?lang=fr&client=epfl&q=scoot+elec&site=epfl&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=latin1&oe=latin1&hl=fr&as_sitesearch=
[/ Url]
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by I Citro » 14/12/09, 13:21

bernardd wrote:If you can recharge by pedaling, descending, or in 20s on a socket, and with a lifespan which is that of the bicycle, I am ready to lose a little in efficiency of electronic circuit ;-)
In fact you are going to double the mass and size of the electronics to gain nothing in autonomy or efficiency. Better for the same additional mass-size add a battery that will double your autonomy or boost your performance.
:?
bernardd wrote:I don't remember who put a link to a thesis at EPFL on another discussion (thanks to him, sorry lost the source :-(), but it presents a concept of DC / DC converter which seems more effective than the conventional versions ...

It is surely me, because it is an experiment on scoot'élec. :P
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by bernardd » 14/12/09, 13:27

citro wrote:
bernardd wrote:If you can recharge by pedaling, descending, or in 20s on a socket, and with a lifespan which is that of the bicycle, I am ready to lose a little in efficiency of electronic circuit ;-)
In fact you are going to double the mass and size of the electronics to gain nothing in autonomy or efficiency. Better for the same additional mass-size add a battery that will double your autonomy or boost your performance.


But the energy to fill the 2 batteries, where would I take it? Plus the price and the pollution, and their change in 4 years ...

No, I prefer to have an electronic circuit, even if you have to wait 3 months more ...

citro wrote: It is surely me, because it is an experiment on scoot'élec. :P
Thanks again then :-)
Last edited by bernardd the 26 / 12 / 09, 09: 54, 1 edited once.
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