Hello,
In the context of a new construction with installation of solar panels (in Guadeloupe), would it be interesting to install an electrical "double grid" that would operate independently?
By that I mean a 12V network reserved for lighting (and possibly some other transformerless devices, to think about), and a classic 220V for "classic" devices (washing machine, etc.)?
Would it be possible to save solar energy to optimize efficiency?
Also think about the cost of investment, but if it can be profitable in the long term for even the lighting can not be bad ...
I'm waiting for your opinion :-) (I do not know much but I touch a little at all)
Double grid 12V and 220V?
The question has no simple answer ...
on the one hand, you will avoid DC / AC conversion losses ...
But on the other hand, you will have a lot more losses per Joule effect in your 12V network than the 220V
For the same device power, the current required is 220 / 12 = 18,3 times greater, and Joules losses 336 times greater ... (proportional to the square of the currents)
You will therefore need large copper sections to avoid overheating ... all the more so that it will always require an 220V network in parallel. Surely not economical at installation!
Personally, I would rather bet on a good battery pack / converter, with a classic 220V network.
on the one hand, you will avoid DC / AC conversion losses ...
But on the other hand, you will have a lot more losses per Joule effect in your 12V network than the 220V
For the same device power, the current required is 220 / 12 = 18,3 times greater, and Joules losses 336 times greater ... (proportional to the square of the currents)
You will therefore need large copper sections to avoid overheating ... all the more so that it will always require an 220V network in parallel. Surely not economical at installation!
Personally, I would rather bet on a good battery pack / converter, with a classic 220V network.
0 x
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elephant
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- Registration: 28/07/06, 21:25
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And for having done a lot of 12V stuff, I would add that the fire risk is higher. So, unless you make connections in 6 mm² and have irreproachable connections .....
0 x
elephant Supreme Honorary éconologue PCQ ..... I'm too cautious, not rich enough and too lazy to really save the CO2! http://www.caroloo.be
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chatelot16
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- Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
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An 12V network was useful a few decades ago when the converter was expensive, and often in poor performance
Today there is more to hesitate: the same low-end converter has good performance and especially low power lost empty: loss only depending on the power used
12V is 20 times smaller than 230, so it requires more 20 current: it needs at least 20 cables bigger times to pass the same power ... but 1volt lost in voltage drop is 20 times more Important in 12V than in 230v therefore to have the same transmission efficiency in 12V as in 230V it takes a section 400 times bigger (20x20 = 400)
Another advantage of the inverter they all have a function stop at battery voltage too low which avoids too much unloading ... direct connection 12V there too often a device that buzzes the battery by unloading thoroughly
Today there is more to hesitate: the same low-end converter has good performance and especially low power lost empty: loss only depending on the power used
12V is 20 times smaller than 230, so it requires more 20 current: it needs at least 20 cables bigger times to pass the same power ... but 1volt lost in voltage drop is 20 times more Important in 12V than in 230v therefore to have the same transmission efficiency in 12V as in 230V it takes a section 400 times bigger (20x20 = 400)
Another advantage of the inverter they all have a function stop at battery voltage too low which avoids too much unloading ... direct connection 12V there too often a device that buzzes the battery by unloading thoroughly
0 x
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antoinet111
- Grand Econologue
- posts: 874
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The shadow
- I understand econologic
- posts: 171
- Registration: 13/04/08, 15:16
- x 2
For calculations 
It is the intensity which is to be controlled and to put the section which is necessary because the greater the distance will be between source and receiver plus your section will be important (although it is in theory true but on the ground it is different because other variables exist that are important)
For this trend of putting inverters everywhere (Hello the Reagent and Joules and Harmonic Losses) and this imposes electronic components so more breakdowns (if you wish for pains and expenses)
For your voltage 12 Volts it is a great idea with the new technology that should give you any satisfaction and thus have an increased security
For the 220 volts you will have to put all this in the standard so 2.5² for your sockets and other sections following your electrical devices and their powers announce by the manufacturers and provide a safety margin (20%) because the place of residence is with a t ° higher than the standard standard (Europe) something else important your devices will have to be at the standards (vital grounding everywhere)
I only gave you what tracks (blada)
And a well of earth will have to be present and control (of 3 ohms with a cut-off bar) and for the panels all connect to earth 'equipotential'
Many more details will be needed
It is the intensity which is to be controlled and to put the section which is necessary because the greater the distance will be between source and receiver plus your section will be important (although it is in theory true but on the ground it is different because other variables exist that are important)
For this trend of putting inverters everywhere (Hello the Reagent and Joules and Harmonic Losses) and this imposes electronic components so more breakdowns (if you wish for pains and expenses)
For your voltage 12 Volts it is a great idea with the new technology that should give you any satisfaction and thus have an increased security
For the 220 volts you will have to put all this in the standard so 2.5² for your sockets and other sections following your electrical devices and their powers announce by the manufacturers and provide a safety margin (20%) because the place of residence is with a t ° higher than the standard standard (Europe) something else important your devices will have to be at the standards (vital grounding everywhere)
I only gave you what tracks (blada)
And a well of earth will have to be present and control (of 3 ohms with a cut-off bar) and for the panels all connect to earth 'equipotential'
Many more details will be needed
0 x
Re: Dual electrical network 12V and 220V?
Hello gentlemen,
Delighted to read this debate on 220 volts VS domestic 12v, to be able to see the good technical bases on the joule effect which could simply be summarized as "line loss".
I cannot determine very precisely the percentage of this loss which is the basis of calculation that I must take into account in the creation of my 2nd Prototype of "Mobile Solar Generator WITHOUT battery" (but with accumulators).
So I'm going to tell you the story of my first Proto, explain to you how I was able to do without batteries because initially of course, I used Lead/GEL and in 1 LiFePo2014 without BMS then 4 with BMS while launching an investigation which lasted 2016 years to remove these electrochemical batteries which I find unreliable over time (too poorly cycled and aging too quickly), poorly performing in the restitution of intensities, ultimately very expensive to use, too slow to load and REALLY too polluting.
Yeah...Electrochemistry for storing juice is really not great. The most cultured and/or smartest among you may already have understood what I replaced these damn batteries with.
In March 2012 I installed the first mobile solar installation to meet the production needs of my Food Truck. I simply wanted to avoid the use of thermal generators for ecological, economical and practical reasons.
All my colleagues in the Pizza truck told me that my project was "technically impossible": I wanted to output around 3 Kw under 220v with a beautiful and pure sinusoid, just to connect my computer and TV in addition to the cold chain, the percolator and 2 fridges and 2 freezers.
It took me 3 months, but the impossible that I was told, well... It was possible and even exceeded since at peak I manage to draw peaks at 5,5 Kw from my Multiplus VICTRON.
However, as I said above, batteries are not great, especially if you have "intensive use" of them. I also have my last LiFePo4 battery whose cathode melted even though I was not using juice, short circuit or poor Chinese manufacturing I have no certainty but my Food Truck almost turned into a giant barbecue when the 200 Ah of my Lithium battery started to release quickly...
At 1600 balls per piece of lithium (customs did not forget to take its share via the delivery person), the major risk that I had just avoided and the price necessary for the replacement, I was so disappointed that I returned to lead not even gel, telling me that I had to investigate to replace this Lithium which is nothing other than an ecological heresy for me which according to my 2016 instinct, will be coupled with an economic heresy as and when measurement of the electrification of the rolling stock at French and global level.
I embarked on an investigation lasting almost 4 years. Did tests on Super Caps // with lead. It was not really conclusive but technically interesting given the incredible powers of the Super Caps that I observed on my Food Truck whose cabin served as my technical lab.
In 2020, I ended up finding my Holy Grail in Australia, but lo and behold: the European market was not deliverable? I went out of my way to contact the CEO of this Australian company to buy some at 1100 euros per storable Kwh but nothing happened: the Boss told me that Europe was not deliverable.
But after a month, I finally received an email from a large Italian company which had been chosen by the Australian company to distribute its production!
I rushed to buy a copy and put it through my home crash tests.
To be honest, I wasn't impressed, I expected better. But I understood that I will have peace of mind for 45 years of storing my green electricity.
I simply had to multiply the number of accumulator elements. I ordered 2 more and it worked as hoped.
It's 1 euros per piece of 100 kg, 23 cm on 160 by 8 for 9 Kwh and max voltage at 1 but according to my home crash tests, I raised them to 13,5 volts without explosion.
I tested all of this in professional use throughout 2020 and spring 2021: no worries, it's even great at super fast charging speed which at the right power is 10 minutes from 0 to 100%
And in August 2021, after being able to test the Super Caps, I decided to embark on a “battery-free solar trailer” project.
I am at 60% completion and a forecast budget of 17 euros in low configuration (with 000 Super Caps modules extendable to 3 depending on the GVW of 15 kg of my trailer).
I select from the best components on a global scale while favoring the closest suppliers.
What was my surprise to see that TESLA and SCTD industries (French) came a year after I started, released their models of "solar trailers"... (easily found via Google)
Yeah, but looking closer and seeing what I'm developing, I'm sure that my Proto will not only be better than theirs, but downright more advanced in every way.
I can't believe it, but it's true: my Proto will be "technically and technologically better". My solar production surface will be smaller (4 panels of 390 Wp in Full Black from Sun Power with MPPT regulation and Charge/Conversion in “Full Victron” which won my confidence on my 1st Proto.
Yeah, VICTRON is good stuff but some of their trainers are certainly competent but politeness needs to be improved.
I'm not going to show off my work which I wish to keep rather confidential, but a forum green between guys competent in their fields, it is still an opportunity to speak the same language and to share to boost the creativity of eco-responsible systems capable of meeting energy needs.
As I said, the Protos of my competitors TESLA and SCTD have up to 9 solar panels and I limit it to 4 with different automatic orientation and reverb systems in order to maximize yield, store production faster without having to fear aging.
Maximizing solar yield on an equal surface area, reducing storage time, maximizing output intensities, this is the first part of my objectives.
Far from me the idea of releasing a war machine capable of ultra performance, I simply want to go as far as possible in efficiency which ultimately allows me to limit the quantity of panels and therefore resources, while limiting the surface area and footprint.
I don't know about you, but for me ecology is nothing other than the science of the economy of resources and pollution generated.
My second objective in this search for efficiency is to reinvent the use of solar production, in the production tension of course!
Why on earth do we want to use 220 volts at all costs even though we produce 12 or 24?!? Better domestic comfort???
Consuming what we produce in its native state without transforming it, isn't it an irrefutable better consumption of production, because that's what I fundamentally think???
Clearly, I didn't want to switch to 24 volts because 12 is much more universal: Music version SONO, TV, computers, lights, fridge/freezer, telephony, it's crazy all the needs we have can satisfy with 12v without absolutely needing to switch to 220v which of course remains necessary for high-intensity appliances (dishwasher/laundry, coffee machine, etc.).
In fact, I especially want to limit the losses of 12v to 220v conversions, limit the wear of my converter by reducing its workload and above all improve the reliability of my Proto on the essential needs of the type: if the converter breaks down, my Fridge and Freezer are going to have a real problem maintaining the cold chain...
Let's return to our joule effect on 12v, finally on the cable sections are well adapted to the intensities, we can limit the losses, improve the reliability of the system while eliminating the conversion losses since the electricity consumed is none other than the low voltage solar production,
Let's take the average loss of a converter which I estimate to be between 10% for poor Chinese quality and 3% for Victron, we are therefore at around 6,5% loss with an unavoidable technical problem: a breakdown in the long term. , a problem of resilience and real autonomy, involving additional repair costs and electronic waste.
My Proto, I want it to be eco-friendly, with the highest reliability, with a usage cost that has become insignificant thanks to its longevity, with impeccable eco-responsibility using the most suitable materials and equipment, efficient both in its production but also in permitted uses which favor low production voltage and limit the use of 220 volts to strictly necessary uses.
So of course, we have the joule effect, we are all used to only using 220 volts in our homes and 12 volts in majority domestic use is a very incongruous idea.
But did you know that the "line losses" which occur between the nuclear power plant closest to you and your domestic socket, there are already 9% losses if we count the joule effect but also the inherent losses very high voltage to high voltage conversions to your neighborhood to finally be 220 volts?
Did you know that ultimately most of your lighting, TV, sound amplifier, telephone and tablets do not consume 220 volts but rather a low voltage of between 12 and 21 volts which adds new conversion losses which can be really large depending on the quality electronic components of the devices you use?
Finally, those who argued in favor of using 220v, citing the joule effect and factors of 40, have realized that 220 volts is ultimately much more expensive in terms of "line losses"?
If we want to be autonomous and resilient, the use of 12v from our own solar production instead of being dependent on a national nuclear network whose needs feed the energy strategy of the atom of which we no longer know what to do waste, the risks of which, although low, remain intact not only on the power plants but also on the waste storage sites which we bequeath to future generations the task of finding solutions for their management which we have not yet been able to make reliable , then the question of losses due to Joule effect on a short domestic network seems very secondary to me.
In my opinion and this is what I am developing at this very moment (first commissioning of the Proto planned for September 1), the use of 2024v in domestic seems to me to have better reliability, real losses but ultimately very negligible.
Do you know what would make me happy? It is that each of you who spoke on this forum, ends up voting and sharing his vote with me:
Who is in favor of developing the use of 12v?
Who is against?
It is up to each person to justify their vote according to their knowledge. The important thing is to bring technical knowledge to the debate and that eventually, you never know, I can integrate 12v connectors into my Proto that can allow the best contacts, have the best practicality and longevity in the face of humidity and avoid short circuits and arcing risks.
Kind regards - Pascal - Toulouse - bar.biturique (at) gmail.com
Delighted to read this debate on 220 volts VS domestic 12v, to be able to see the good technical bases on the joule effect which could simply be summarized as "line loss".
I cannot determine very precisely the percentage of this loss which is the basis of calculation that I must take into account in the creation of my 2nd Prototype of "Mobile Solar Generator WITHOUT battery" (but with accumulators).
So I'm going to tell you the story of my first Proto, explain to you how I was able to do without batteries because initially of course, I used Lead/GEL and in 1 LiFePo2014 without BMS then 4 with BMS while launching an investigation which lasted 2016 years to remove these electrochemical batteries which I find unreliable over time (too poorly cycled and aging too quickly), poorly performing in the restitution of intensities, ultimately very expensive to use, too slow to load and REALLY too polluting.
Yeah...Electrochemistry for storing juice is really not great. The most cultured and/or smartest among you may already have understood what I replaced these damn batteries with.
In March 2012 I installed the first mobile solar installation to meet the production needs of my Food Truck. I simply wanted to avoid the use of thermal generators for ecological, economical and practical reasons.
All my colleagues in the Pizza truck told me that my project was "technically impossible": I wanted to output around 3 Kw under 220v with a beautiful and pure sinusoid, just to connect my computer and TV in addition to the cold chain, the percolator and 2 fridges and 2 freezers.
It took me 3 months, but the impossible that I was told, well... It was possible and even exceeded since at peak I manage to draw peaks at 5,5 Kw from my Multiplus VICTRON.
However, as I said above, batteries are not great, especially if you have "intensive use" of them. I also have my last LiFePo4 battery whose cathode melted even though I was not using juice, short circuit or poor Chinese manufacturing I have no certainty but my Food Truck almost turned into a giant barbecue when the 200 Ah of my Lithium battery started to release quickly...
At 1600 balls per piece of lithium (customs did not forget to take its share via the delivery person), the major risk that I had just avoided and the price necessary for the replacement, I was so disappointed that I returned to lead not even gel, telling me that I had to investigate to replace this Lithium which is nothing other than an ecological heresy for me which according to my 2016 instinct, will be coupled with an economic heresy as and when measurement of the electrification of the rolling stock at French and global level.
I embarked on an investigation lasting almost 4 years. Did tests on Super Caps // with lead. It was not really conclusive but technically interesting given the incredible powers of the Super Caps that I observed on my Food Truck whose cabin served as my technical lab.
In 2020, I ended up finding my Holy Grail in Australia, but lo and behold: the European market was not deliverable? I went out of my way to contact the CEO of this Australian company to buy some at 1100 euros per storable Kwh but nothing happened: the Boss told me that Europe was not deliverable.
But after a month, I finally received an email from a large Italian company which had been chosen by the Australian company to distribute its production!
I rushed to buy a copy and put it through my home crash tests.
To be honest, I wasn't impressed, I expected better. But I understood that I will have peace of mind for 45 years of storing my green electricity.
I simply had to multiply the number of accumulator elements. I ordered 2 more and it worked as hoped.
It's 1 euros per piece of 100 kg, 23 cm on 160 by 8 for 9 Kwh and max voltage at 1 but according to my home crash tests, I raised them to 13,5 volts without explosion.
I tested all of this in professional use throughout 2020 and spring 2021: no worries, it's even great at super fast charging speed which at the right power is 10 minutes from 0 to 100%
And in August 2021, after being able to test the Super Caps, I decided to embark on a “battery-free solar trailer” project.
I am at 60% completion and a forecast budget of 17 euros in low configuration (with 000 Super Caps modules extendable to 3 depending on the GVW of 15 kg of my trailer).
I select from the best components on a global scale while favoring the closest suppliers.
What was my surprise to see that TESLA and SCTD industries (French) came a year after I started, released their models of "solar trailers"... (easily found via Google)
Yeah, but looking closer and seeing what I'm developing, I'm sure that my Proto will not only be better than theirs, but downright more advanced in every way.
I can't believe it, but it's true: my Proto will be "technically and technologically better". My solar production surface will be smaller (4 panels of 390 Wp in Full Black from Sun Power with MPPT regulation and Charge/Conversion in “Full Victron” which won my confidence on my 1st Proto.
Yeah, VICTRON is good stuff but some of their trainers are certainly competent but politeness needs to be improved.
I'm not going to show off my work which I wish to keep rather confidential, but a forum green between guys competent in their fields, it is still an opportunity to speak the same language and to share to boost the creativity of eco-responsible systems capable of meeting energy needs.
As I said, the Protos of my competitors TESLA and SCTD have up to 9 solar panels and I limit it to 4 with different automatic orientation and reverb systems in order to maximize yield, store production faster without having to fear aging.
Maximizing solar yield on an equal surface area, reducing storage time, maximizing output intensities, this is the first part of my objectives.
Far from me the idea of releasing a war machine capable of ultra performance, I simply want to go as far as possible in efficiency which ultimately allows me to limit the quantity of panels and therefore resources, while limiting the surface area and footprint.
I don't know about you, but for me ecology is nothing other than the science of the economy of resources and pollution generated.
My second objective in this search for efficiency is to reinvent the use of solar production, in the production tension of course!
Why on earth do we want to use 220 volts at all costs even though we produce 12 or 24?!? Better domestic comfort???
Consuming what we produce in its native state without transforming it, isn't it an irrefutable better consumption of production, because that's what I fundamentally think???
Clearly, I didn't want to switch to 24 volts because 12 is much more universal: Music version SONO, TV, computers, lights, fridge/freezer, telephony, it's crazy all the needs we have can satisfy with 12v without absolutely needing to switch to 220v which of course remains necessary for high-intensity appliances (dishwasher/laundry, coffee machine, etc.).
In fact, I especially want to limit the losses of 12v to 220v conversions, limit the wear of my converter by reducing its workload and above all improve the reliability of my Proto on the essential needs of the type: if the converter breaks down, my Fridge and Freezer are going to have a real problem maintaining the cold chain...
Let's return to our joule effect on 12v, finally on the cable sections are well adapted to the intensities, we can limit the losses, improve the reliability of the system while eliminating the conversion losses since the electricity consumed is none other than the low voltage solar production,
Let's take the average loss of a converter which I estimate to be between 10% for poor Chinese quality and 3% for Victron, we are therefore at around 6,5% loss with an unavoidable technical problem: a breakdown in the long term. , a problem of resilience and real autonomy, involving additional repair costs and electronic waste.
My Proto, I want it to be eco-friendly, with the highest reliability, with a usage cost that has become insignificant thanks to its longevity, with impeccable eco-responsibility using the most suitable materials and equipment, efficient both in its production but also in permitted uses which favor low production voltage and limit the use of 220 volts to strictly necessary uses.
So of course, we have the joule effect, we are all used to only using 220 volts in our homes and 12 volts in majority domestic use is a very incongruous idea.
But did you know that the "line losses" which occur between the nuclear power plant closest to you and your domestic socket, there are already 9% losses if we count the joule effect but also the inherent losses very high voltage to high voltage conversions to your neighborhood to finally be 220 volts?
Did you know that ultimately most of your lighting, TV, sound amplifier, telephone and tablets do not consume 220 volts but rather a low voltage of between 12 and 21 volts which adds new conversion losses which can be really large depending on the quality electronic components of the devices you use?
Finally, those who argued in favor of using 220v, citing the joule effect and factors of 40, have realized that 220 volts is ultimately much more expensive in terms of "line losses"?
If we want to be autonomous and resilient, the use of 12v from our own solar production instead of being dependent on a national nuclear network whose needs feed the energy strategy of the atom of which we no longer know what to do waste, the risks of which, although low, remain intact not only on the power plants but also on the waste storage sites which we bequeath to future generations the task of finding solutions for their management which we have not yet been able to make reliable , then the question of losses due to Joule effect on a short domestic network seems very secondary to me.
In my opinion and this is what I am developing at this very moment (first commissioning of the Proto planned for September 1), the use of 2024v in domestic seems to me to have better reliability, real losses but ultimately very negligible.
Do you know what would make me happy? It is that each of you who spoke on this forum, ends up voting and sharing his vote with me:
Who is in favor of developing the use of 12v?
Who is against?
It is up to each person to justify their vote according to their knowledge. The important thing is to bring technical knowledge to the debate and that eventually, you never know, I can integrate 12v connectors into my Proto that can allow the best contacts, have the best practicality and longevity in the face of humidity and avoid short circuits and arcing risks.
Kind regards - Pascal - Toulouse - bar.biturique (at) gmail.com
0 x
Re: Dual electrical network 12V and 220V?
Lots of chatter to finally say shit... and no doubt another margoulin who comes to sell wind.
0 x
Re: Dual electrical network 12V and 220V?
12V is adequate for very small consumers such as automobile accessories, but as soon as we exceed 1000 W, the current is monstrous (around 100A) and we have a mine of copper for each electrical line.
12V is not standard, apart from these small accessories, and all the "interesting" devices are standard 220V AC.
For me, it is better to have a 220V network from the start, and if necessary use an auxiliary 12V network; it can either be reproduced from 220V via a converter, or be "spiked" directly to the batteries (provided that they are // 12V)
12V is not standard, apart from these small accessories, and all the "interesting" devices are standard 220V AC.
For me, it is better to have a 220V network from the start, and if necessary use an auxiliary 12V network; it can either be reproduced from 220V via a converter, or be "spiked" directly to the batteries (provided that they are // 12V)
0 x
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