Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!

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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!




by sicetaitsimple » 07/11/19, 12:25

Remundo wrote:it is not difficult to balance (a little) the phases on a sorting installation with neutral, it is enough to change the phase of the biggest consumer on another phase less solicited.


You're right, that peut do not be complicated.
But in an old house (we are talking about 1940 in this case), the distribution of phases was often one in the basement, one in the DRC, one upstairs (at the time there was no lava -liner, no dishwasher, no electric oven, no tumble dryer, ... it went very well) and then sub-tables by level.
If since there has been no "deep" renovation modifying this basic principle, it can be quite complex.
An old man to see according to his situation.
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Christophe
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Re: Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!




by Christophe » 07/11/19, 12:53

sicetaitsimple wrote:An old man to see according to his situation.


Yes, moreover some photos could help us to help ...

In fact it's not so easy to find a cheap consumer ID! All I found (in a few minutes of research) are pro models, certainly a few hundred €, see several thousand ...

However, it would be quite easy to make a plug connected to a tester plug that would be beeping (or the jack or an LCD) when touching the phase of the decision at the table using powerline signal technology ... or other electronic trick ...

After all, we can also play on the circuit breakers to identify the network ... but it requires an accomplice who screams loudly! : Mrgreen:
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Re: Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!




by Petrus » 07/11/19, 17:38

No need for an accomplice, a power 12V + a clacson car and voila!
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Re: Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!




by Christophe » 07/11/19, 17:55

A clacson? Ah horn!

Ah yes not con ... just do not forget to cut the general! : Mrgreen:

Yes good the accomplice will serve to move the horn!
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Re: Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!




by Forhorse » 07/11/19, 22:11

The price of the subscription is the same in single-phase as in three-phase ... it's just that in three-phase one is generally obliged to take the subscription of the section above to have a current per phase "usable"
For example, for an 9kw subscription:
in mono there is 1x40A, so no problem to connect a washing machine, oven or any other gourmet device in addition to another and the rest of the house.
In three-phase on 3x15A that is to say it is impossible to power a single-phase device of more than 3500w. So for a big device it goes, two a little greedy on the same phase it disjuncts. So blow that usually forces you to switch to an 12kw subscription therefore more expensive than the 9kw to have 3x20A and a little flexibility in the distribution of loads on the phases.
This is where comes the legend of the three-phase subscription more expensive than the single phase, while equal power is the same price.
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Re: Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!




by Christophe » 08/11/19, 08:49

What is not normal and coherent for EDF for the reason that I evoked above: EDF should align its subscriptions on the A and not on the total kVA between tri and mono!

EDF has an interest in selling three-phase subscriptions as balanced as possible: if you warm your wood and your neighbor with electricity, the phase difference between 2 subscription mono will be monstrous on the same transformer! If you were all 2 three-phase and the heaters neighbor are wired in a balanced way, the 3 phases (point of view transformer street or higher according to the distribution of phases ...) would be well better balanced!

In Belgium (where I have never seen anything other than sorting, at least in my region, in the big cities I do not know) it seems to me that we are entitled to 50A per phase (once the calculation is made here in A and not in VA) in three-phase 230V without neutral in the basic subscription.

That is, a possible maximum instantaneous cumulative power (3 phases at 50A, 100% balanced therefore) of Root (3) * 50 * 230 = 20 kVA

But as said in another subject, the truth price is 30c € / kWh ... so that is paid ... and at this price it is better not to shoot the 20 kVA : Cheesy:
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Re: Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!




by izentrop » 08/11/19, 09:11

Christophe wrote:That is, a possible maximum instantaneous cumulative power (3 phases at 50A, 100% balanced therefore) of Root (3) * 50 * 230 = 20 kVA

Calculations are based on 200 V
20 kVA / 100 = 200 A not divisible by 3.
In France there is 18 or 24 kVA, which gives 60 and 80 A per phase http://fournisseur-energie.com/edf-four ... /triphase/

Example: 60 A for 12 kVA of apparent power allows an effective power of 240 * 60 = 14400 W for an electrical resistance and a COS phi of 14.4 / 12 = 0.84 for an inductive load.
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!




by sicetaitsimple » 08/11/19, 11:07

Christophe wrote:What is not normal and coherent for EDF for the reason that I evoked above: EDF should align its subscriptions on the A and not on the total kVA between tri and mono!


They must still have a vague idea of ​​what they are doing.
In any case, for a new private connection, they connect either 12kVA mono or 36kVA tri. A large consumer (subscription> 12kVA) will therefore necessarily be three-phase.
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Re: Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!




by Peter92 » 10/02/24, 11:15

sicetaitsimple wrote:
Petrus wrote:The three-phase in individuals is in extinction, and it's a good thing. It is a fact of history, and unless there is a specific need, such as the use of a fairly powerful machine tool, it is only found in relatively old installations.
Now, if you want to consume 12kVA on a single phase, on a three-phase installation of a certain age, try. Firefighters are the 18.


I really think the opposite. With the evolution of energies and electrification, three-phase is truly the connection of the future for homes of a certain size. We indeed need more and more power for heat pumps, electric vehicle charging, and obviously all the devices in a house... Balancing is not that difficult, and a load shedding can also help if we have subscribed to a somewhat fair power. You have to balance it with common sense. For example, by telling yourself that the water heater, which will operate during off-peak hours, will not draw power at the same time as the oven or the kitchen appliances, which will operate before meals. We can therefore put the oven and the water heater on the same phase. Large appliances which will operate during off-peak hours can also be distributed over the three phases: on one phase the water heater, on another the electric car socket (if single-phase), on another the washing machine/dishwasher. For the kitchen, we will place the oven in one phase, the worktop sockets in another phase (possibly also distributed over the 3rd phase), so that we can use both at the same time.

At an individual's home, for charging electric vehicles, single-phase limits in practice to 7kW, while in three-phase we can easily go up to 22kW, and with terminals capable of dynamically adapting the charging power to the capacity available on the 'Electrical Installation. So yes 7kW is sufficient, but 22 is better, especially when you have several vehicles per household.
For large consumers such as heat pumps, saunas, certain pumps or garden/agricultural devices, three-phase quickly becomes essential. It is therefore the most versatile choice and it is the best for the electrical network, because we make the effort to balance and therefore limit the voltage drop on each phase.
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Re: Compliance Table Electrical Three Phase Not Balanced! Linky jumping!




by Forhorse » 10/02/24, 15:54

Petrus92 wrote: because we make the effort to balance and therefore limit the voltage drop on each phase.


False argument because in the context of single-phase connection, it is Enedis which balances the network between the different subscribers. (they won't connect everyone to phase 1 and leave phases 2 and 3 empty...)
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