Installation of a wood heater with solar booster

[Woodcutter]

I have only one small question: what about isolation in all this?

[Thierry 88]

Give me STP the type of house (stone), year of construction, volume to be heated, desired indoor temperature, area, and I would tell you the power Maxi boiler.

The house is stone and dates from 1874. I have a temperature of 23 ° winter with my old boiler and my wife got used to it, so .... . We live in the Vosges department
The insulation is correct but dates from 10ans.

To give you an order of magnitude with a properly insulated house it is necessary to cover in heating 30% needs 10% of the surface of the house in solar collectors.

Oh yes, the site gives me 25 sqm panel area but how do I do the summer to use this heat, it will bubble, right?

ps: if you take a boiler Morvan is really that your wood boiler is really very very outdated (and again I'm nice). it's not really the last scream!

yes, my old boiler is about thirty years old, it works very well but it is very greedy in quantity of wood

[Christophe]

boiler and solar plant were doing a very bad marriage and it requires a big focus (adjustment) otherwise the solar is useless.

What on earth do you rely on to say this?

Because for many of us, on the contrary: wood + solar = the most econological heating solution: 0 dependence on oil or gas and boiler off 4 to 6 months in the year thanks to solar.

I put the link of our installation higher: https://www.econologie.com/forums/auto-insta ... t6030.html

I did not have to make huge adjustments and it works rather well (but we have heated floors) ... so no high T ° necessary.

Plus if I compare 15 m² of sensors to 30 kW boiler that means two things.

1) the house really needs 30 kW and the solar (heating) is for fun.

2) the boiler is overestimated.

According to the material indicated on the quotations: the solar is EXCLUSIVELY for the ECS not for the heating ...

As for the sizing of the boiler, with the boiler boilers a thing annoys me when we talk about power. Because what counts for the comfort and performance of a boiler is not really the maximum power but its loading capacity, in other words: its autonomy!

Ideally you only have to load your boiler once a day.

Maybe that's why the boiler logs seem oversized? Be careful with a pellet boiler it is the opposite: it must be rather undersized to light as often as possible!

To give you an order of magnitude with a properly insulated house it is necessary to cover in heating 30% needs 10% of the surface of the house in solar collectors.

Uh it means that to cover 100% it would 33% of the surface of the house sensor?

Living space? It seems to me an approximation far too approximate ... in the south may be but in the Vosges I doubt ...

ps: Thierry88, the prices are quite high (but in the "norm"): have you thought of the self-construction ... or of a pellet boiler? Well negotiated you should get by at roughly the same price. Hey Did67 has just made an estimate of its installation: https://www.econologie.com/forums/photos-cha ... t5995.html
But maybe you make your own wood?
Hey idea! Finally, if you are satisfied with your current boiler, do not optimize it rather than change it? That is to say: put a buffer that will be coupled to a solar system may be a little larger than what you are offered ...

[Woodcutter]

[...] The insulation is correct but dates from 10ans [...]

Uh ... yes but still? What is "correct"?

[Thierry 88]

But maybe you make your own wood?
Hey idea! Finally, if you are satisfied with your current boiler, do not optimize it rather than change it? That is to say: put a buffer that will be coupled to a solar system may be a little larger than what you are offered ...

Yes, I make my wood myself and it costs me 200 € to the year all expenses included (petrol, diesel, chainsaw chain, etc.)

[...] The insulation is correct but dates from 10ans [...]

Uh ... yes but still? What is "correct"?

8cm of polystyrene on the plasterboard on the edge of the house, 20cm of glass wool between the ground floor and the floor and 30cm in ceiling of the upper floor
The windows are new and of superior glazing quality.


To return to my change of boiler, the goal is to put a powerful boiler and enjoy the tax credit and loan to 0% to add a solar supplement. The goal of the solar is to take the colors that it will be able to recover during the season autumn, winter, spring and to complete the heating of the buffer tank with the boiler wood.

Sanitary water production and made by a mixed ball that is on the same circuit as heating. (did you understand what I mean ?:?:)

In summer, the solar will produce enough energy to heat the sanitary water tank.
The problem if there are too many panels, it will be necessary to put shutters to me not to rise in temperature the summer?

[Woodcutter]

[...]
8cm of polystyrene on the plasterboard on the edge of the house, 20cm of glass wool between the ground floor and the floor and 30cm in ceiling of the upper floor
The windows are new and of superior glazing quality. [...]

OK, I agree with you, there is not much to gain on that side ...
It is also quite rare to see such a thickness of LdV.

Have you made an estimate of energy consumption over one year?

[Laurent LFC]

Hi, it's going too fast for me. I will try to answer point by point but first to the gentleman who asks questions ... And do some didactics to support my remarks.

1) Need heating. Wholesale stone house with 1 roof insulation I guess (only). The walls remain as. We must rely on a G of 1.5 W / m3.C.

The house is 260 m² (height 2.5) is a volume of 650 m3.

Reference temperature in vogses = -15 ° C

P = 1.5 * 650 * (23 + 15) = 37 kw

Boiler power = 37 kW. Neither more nor less (we'll see why lower)

2) Calculation of the buffer tank mini!

Boilers of this type have filling volumes of 160 liters (logs 50 cm), which is equivalent to 60 kgs of wood. On average the wood generates 3.5 kWh per kilo so the boiler will supply 210 kWh. All these data are examples and depend on the characteristics of the boiler.
The yield (Morvan I do not speak) for this type of power with high-end is around 88%. So net the boiler provides 210 * 0.88 = 184 kWh.

This energy will therefore provide energy to the ball qd home does not need or at home. And she will cover the need on cold days! That's why we calculate this power. Now we can take more powerful but then it is necessary that it is an interest that the volume of loading increases or else it is used to heat the water faster which then only has nothing to do with the boiler is to size to cover the worst. CASE. AND IN ADDITION, ALSO A BIG BUFFER BALLOON.

So the buffer tank should have a minimum capacity of:
worst case no heating in the house AND above all it is not necessary to run the boiler in low power (poor performance, risk of overheating if the low power regulation fails).

E (Wh) = Volume * Delta T * 1.16 = Volume * (85 - 35) * 1.16

85 Max Balloon Temp
35 Min temp

Volume = 184 000 / (1.16 * 50) = 3200 liters! mini if ​​the boiler is charged to its max.

3) Attention the 3200 liters will hold:

Need 24 hours for an outside temperature of 0 °
E (24hours) = G * volume * DT
= 650 * 1.5 * (23-0) * 24 = 538 kWh

Except in the case of a floor heating or a house on dimensioned in radiators, it requires mini water at 55 ° C, the balloon will provide an energy of
E = 3200 * 1.16 * (85 - 55) = 111kWh

Taking the hypothesis that the energy demand is equidistributed at the 24 hours, it will be necessary to recharge every 5 hours.

If the calculations are not too wrong, your current boiler runs almost 24h / 24h when temperatures are negative.

As someone writes to you if you want to last 24 hours without loading your boiler, you will have to move to a little more BIG installations or as it is highly recommended to insulate to lower the G and a little lower the temperature inside!

4) Why the solar does not work in your case with 15 sqm sensor sonnenkraft for example to heat (for whoever thinks that the man will do the ECS with 15 m², he will have him to potash his physics books but I'm going to help him a little bit, but he may be able to do solar advice).
So let's resume,
15 m² facing south without a mask ds the vosges will capture in December / January for an inclination of 70 ° = 1000 Wh / m².jours either with 15 m² = 15 000 WH / m² = 15 kWh. The efficiency of the sonnenkraft sensor for a delta T of 40 ° (10 ° input 50 ° at the output) is 35%, the energy which is thus recovered is 5 kWh.
You need 538 kWh in winters.

Conclusion: to be green, I spent 15 000 E to 5 kWh. Even if the ecologists cry it is better to buy EDF!

Take 10% of the surface = 25 m², they will provide: 25 000 kWh and with a better sensor (sonnenkraft is a middle range) 50% we will have 12.5 kWh.

ps: 30% corresponds to a house whose g is at 0.8 and heated to 19 °. It is sure that Mr. heated to 23 ° C, it will have to increase the surface and even 10% it is not enough!

In summer how do we do. In fact the inclination to 70% allows to limit the contributions in summer so no overheating.

5) Why "wood logs" and no pellets do not mix! with solar. and that it takes experience and tuning to get there.
The boiler is not automatic, so once it's gone, it's gone. Generally we start in the morning AND in the evening in full winters. But when the balloon is already at 40 ° C, I do what winters solar that barely exceeds 40 ° C.
Of course we can do tricks but for that we must know its installation. Boiler at the top of the balloon and solar down and never have 40 ° C ds the bottom of the balloon but 20 ° C (good fun to determine this).
ps: it's about the guy forgot to mention that he heated a floor heating and he needs water at 25 ° C. So he put in the middle a valve that takes the solar when it is available or ds the balloon (it's a little more complicated than that but it was to explain). So go ask the installer Lamba!

Sorry I saw right now that the house is more insulated than I thought.We must have a G of 1 W / m3.C

The boiler must not run 24 / 24.

Sorry it was long, but a pro should advise you that way. Resume calculations with G = 1. It's also not just calculation, it's validated by my own experience.
Froling 15 kW + 1000 l (and ongoing for 15 m² of sensors).

A+

[Thierry 88]

Thank you for these clarifications and calculations.

I see it more clearly.
But why installers do not explain simply instead of baratiner

Surely because they are only commercial

[Laurent LFC]

Hi, and thanks, look qd even the doc sonnenkraft, there are schemas of principles.

If you need, I can send you my installation diagrams.

A+

[43 PATCH]

Hi everybody,
A little in the same chapter, I will add a solar input on my installation log wood + fuel with ecs on balloon 160l under fuel boiler (ecs series with cumulus elec for comfort).
I own the used equipment described in the diagrams attached (solar part) that I'm going to autoinstaller.
I chose the drain back for practical reasons (superheating management and frost) and the place was suitable.
The principle of 2 tanks of 1000l and 24m2 of old giordano is instead available in s / sol (height) and that of radiators in these tanks comes from a return on a forum neighbour.
I propose for your opinion these 2 montages with some questions that tease my mind:
_how to better manage the load of 2 tanks?
1 / separately 1 wood and 1 solar
2 / en // as on plan with a larger volume of stock but - of t ° knowing that I diffuse by oversized radiators and therefore I do not seek hte t °.
3 / loading one then the other following t ° acquired in each
_in the same order how to take the accumulated energy
1 / one after another
2 / l in 2 at once
However I think that this point will come from the method of loading of the vats (once accumulated one will make good use of it !!!)
For me, the priority is heating, ecs is autonomous if I heat and summer I already prehens the ecs by the solar carpet on the primary circuit of the balloon (mounting that will disappear with the panels).
That's it, I do not say more, it's already long and I prefer your opinion directly to the view of what follows.
Thank you and see you soon,
43 patches,