Construction: thermopierre or wood frame?

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jean63
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by jean63 » 05/02/07, 16:37

OKAY.

This is what I should have done, but I did not know the existence of the Canadian well, it is still feasible: can we make "S" or zig-zags on a small surface?
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by Targol » 05/02/07, 16:50

jean63 wrote:OKAY.

This is what I should have done, but I did not know the existence of the Canadian well, it is still feasible: can we make "S" or zig-zags on a small surface?


Of course. the main thing is not to bring the pipes too close together so that they benefit from the thermal inertia of the soil.
On the other hand, air will circulate more easily in a straight pipe than in a succession of baffles. This configuration may impose a fan at the entrance of the well (whereas a straight well can work with natural convection if the house is well designed).
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bham
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by bham » 05/02/07, 16:59

loondie wrote:Well for a 15cm wooden wall compared to 20 + 10 insulating boards for (approximately) the same insulation coefficient we gain at least for a 100m² house of 10X10m (which is the best surface / perimeter ratio apart a cylindrical house) we gain 6m² or 6% of surface.

According to this calculator:
ideesmaison.com/15-ways-of-constructing-au-banc.html
it takes 21/22 cm of wood to have an R = 1,82 equivalent to 20 + 10 insulating agglos and not 15 cm. But for an equivalent R you will have comfort in mid-season and in summer more important because you will have greater thermal inertia.
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by bham » 05/02/07, 17:04

Targol wrote:
jean63 wrote:OKAY.

This is what I should have done, but I did not know the existence of the Canadian well, it is still feasible: can we make "S" or zig-zags on a small surface?


Of course. the main thing is not to bring the pipes too close together so that they benefit from the thermal inertia of the soil.
On the other hand, air will circulate more easily in a straight pipe than in a succession of baffles. This configuration may impose a fan at the entrance of the well (whereas a straight well can work with natural convection if the house is well designed).

To confirm what Targol is saying, doing S or zigzags may seem interesting, in fact it causes significant pressure drops which decrease your air flow, oblige you to use a large fan, for a gain in heat recovery which is negligible. Go see on the Herzog website, one of the specialists:
http://www.batirbio.org/html/
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by jean63 » 05/02/07, 23:19

Thank you for your answers.

it takes 21/22 cm of wood to have an R = 1,82

Do you include exterior cladding in this thickness?
In the case of my house, from memory there must be 15 cms of structure + 7 mm? of CP CTBX + 2 cms of battens / ventilation space + 5 cms of exterior cladding, which makes about 2 cms..the R = 20 in this case?

More than 20 years ago when I studied construction and materials I know all that by heart, but I would have to revise :?

Of course. the main thing is not to bring the pipes too close together so that they benefit from the thermal inertia of the soil.
On the other hand, air will circulate more easily in a straight pipe than in a succession of baffles. This configuration may impose a fan at the entrance of the well (whereas a straight well can work with natural convection if the house is well designed).

Yes, that I suspected, it's not ideal to do "S". If one day I can acquire the neighboring land, we will see for the Canadian well, because on my land, there are too many trees and shrubs, so big roots + gas and water supply which "cut" the land . The priority will rather be solar collectors.

Go see on the Herzog website, one of the specialists:
http://www.batirbio.org/html/

Already seen this site very well documented on ventilation, it also talks about another unknown and disputed pollution, which I talked about in another subject (I am trying to find where), it is pollution by electrical installation (harmful radiation).
I have the small box which allows to put the network in 6 volts (mainly at night and in the rooms) when all the devices of the network are OFF.
Last edited by jean63 the 06 / 02 / 07, 10: 00, 2 edited once.
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by bham » 06/02/07, 09:27

jean63 wrote: Thank you for your answers.

it takes 21/22 cm of wood to have an R = 1,82

Do you include exterior cladding in this thickness?
In the case of my house, from memory there must be 15 cms of structure + 7 mm? of CP CTBX + 2 cms of battens / ventilation space + 5 cms of exterior cladding, which makes about 2 cms..the R = 20 in this case?.

Have you done simulations with the calculator I'm talking about:
ideesmaison.com/15-ways-of-constructing-au-banc.html
It doesn't seem so simple to me to consider your wall as a compact mass of wood. In my opinion, your exterior cladding could participate in thermal insulation if it was perfectly airtight (but still breathable) and therefore if it was perfectly joined, which is impossible with a natural material. So the air space behind is permanently ventilated and cannot really act as an insulator. The only advantage is that in the event of prolonged sunshine, this air space will heat up in contact with the cladding heated also by the sun. What will bring, in cold period and this for qqs minutes to qqs hours, qqs calories. Calories which, failing to participate in the heating of the house since the insulation is behind, will limit qq time the heat loss.
But that said, your question only concerns the frame, let's say that these are the thermal bridges of your house since in the middle of your frame you have rock wool and there the R is + important.
For my part, I want to try insulation from the outside (on existing masonry) using the same system as you, ie make boxes made of batten fixed to the wall, closed externally by medium or CP, itself covered with cladding fixed on slats. And in the well-sealed boxes, raw sheep's wool.


jean63 wrote:
Go see on the Herzog website, one of the specialists:
http://www.batirbio.org/html/

Already seen this site, but there are so many ..... thank you.

Because Herzog addressed these pressure drop issues in his forum I believe. There's a lot to read, I grant you that, but when you have to, you have to ...
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by jean63 » 06/02/07, 09:53

For my part, I want to try insulation from the outside (on existing masonry) using the same system as you, ie make boxes made of batten fixed to the wall, closed externally by medium or CP, itself covered with cladding fixed on slats. And in the well-sealed boxes, raw sheep's wool.


Very well, you will also have the advantage of having an interesting thermal inertia in your walls, which I do not have with the wooden structure.
There are few thermal bridges at the level of the wood (which is insulating) because the "wall" is made in 2 parts: framework of 10 cm (rock wool in the hollow parts) + CP then outside (crossed at 90 °) framework of 5 cms (rock wool of thickness = 5 cm in hollow parts) + rain screen + battens + cladding.

Indeed, I cannot count the ventilation space in the thickness, but the cladding contributes well to the insulation.
The guy who built the house had spent a few years in the Nordic countries (Sweden, Norway) before embarking on Auvergne. At the time I was his second client, since he has set up shop in Clermont-Fd -OSSABOIS- he must have a website).

Because Herzog addressed these pressure drop issues in his forum I believe

About this site, I added info in the previous post on another subject that he discusses.
One of these 4 I will take the time to read in detail. : Mrgreen:
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by loondie » 06/02/07, 10:53

Targol wrote:
jean63 wrote:
It is not complicated to implement if you take advantage of the water inlet trenches, elec or wastewater trenches to put your Canadian well pipe.


yes except that, in general, the pipes do not pass 1,50 m deep and the length of these is not necessarily sufficient.

Anyway: when you want, you can ... if the finances follow.


You're right, I misspoke.
What I meant to say is that when the guys are there with their backhoe, you ask them to dig an extra trench for a little ticket. I have already done so, they generally agree: it is the boss who pays the fuel and they who pocket the ticket : Mrgreen:


HOULALA we encourage the black market on this site ?????

Just one thing if you want guarantees DON'T DO THAT !!!
BUT ask for a bill from a pro for a trench it won't really cost you more and if there is the slightest problem you are covered ...
DO NOTHING TO DO AT THE BLACK IS ILLEGAL FIRST AND THEN IT IS DANGEROUS ... for a house it is 10 years warranty that jump ...

well i think what ....

(and I'm not from the taxman) (and I'm not rich either : Cry: )

(be careful "BLACk" is different from "SELF-CONSTRUCTION" !! don't make me say what I didn't say)

I tell you that because I potasse on the case law of construction site accidents and if the guy with this shovel digs you outside of his working hours your 1m50 trench and that it collapses causing with it the shovel and the guy c 'is the prorio of the house ONLY that scoops ... no insurance apart from the work devised and ordered ....

but you are the one who sees.
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bham
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by bham » 06/02/07, 11:48

loondie wrote:
I tell you that because I potasse on the case law of construction site accidents and if the guy with this shovel digs you outside of his working hours your 1m50 trench and that it collapses causing with it the shovel and the guy c 'is the prorio of the house ONLY that scoops ... no insurance apart from the work devised and ordered ....
but you are the one who sees.

Uh, well you have to put it into perspective anyway. We are talking about a trench 20/30 cm wide, not a trench to put a gas pipeline !!!
And so far I haven't seen a mini excavator that is small enough to fit in a 30 cm trench : Lol: : Lol: : Lol:
By cons, be careful that the shovel does not damage pipes, water, gas, or electrical connections / telephones.
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by zac » 06/02/07, 13:39

loondie wrote:Just one thing if you want guarantees DON'T DO THAT !!!
BUT ask for a bill from a pro for a trench it won't really cost you more and if there is the slightest problem you are covered ...
DO NOTHING TO DO AT THE BLACK IS ILLEGAL FIRST AND THEN IT IS DANGEROUS ... for a house it is 10 years warranty that jump ...
I tell you that because I potasse on the case law of construction site accidents and if the guy with this shovel digs you outside of his working hours your 1m50 trench and that it collapses causing with it the shovel and the guy c 'is the prorio of the house ONLY that scoops ... no insurance apart from the work devised and ordered ....

but you are the one who sees.


Hello

another legal officer; that's good explain to me how when there is a defect you turn against the contractor to get compensation.
Knowing that for some years it is impossible for a beginner craftsman to insure himself for a decennial and that most of the margoulins who make poor workmanship are in sarl and we disappear when the problem appears (with conscientious craftsmen there is no problem and s 'there is one there the friendly rules).

the law is great the reality of the land is something else, I challenge anyone with the best will in the world, in France to build a house without breaking a single law.

@+
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