Small summary (on fuel savers)?

[Christophe]

hyst, reassure me you know this page:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/search.php
or for the whole site https://www.econologie.com/forums/search.php ?

Example of 2 summary pages on water doping: https://www.econologie.com/synthese-des- ... -3588.html
https://www.econologie.com/synthese-des- ... -3589.html
The famous plan:
https://www.econologie.com/le-plan-origi ... -2167.html

Sorry, we can't do a personalized summary for everyone!

Here is the famous post that we mentioned above: https://www.econologie.com/forums/post202971.html#202971

[dedeleco]

That of Flytox is the common sense answer, official physics, but some believe in the miracle, like nuclear power, of much more energy than at first sight:
http://www.crazymoto.net/index.php?showsujet=209647

The hydrocarbon and water vapors released by boiling pass into the famous plasma reactor (plasma = electrified gas) where the thunderstorm principle is reproduced. The thermochemical decomposition of the water / fuel mixture takes place in this reactor. The vaporization of this new mixture in the intake chamber creates available hydrogen, which, when mixed with the fuel, generates a high-yield hydrocarbon t.

If the physical and chemical laws are valid, this process of decomposition of water (sparks and heat) absorbs as much energy and heat, while cooling, as one will obtain from it after combustion !!
So big doubts about this kind of arguments within the framework of our knowledge.
The yield is improved by how much ????
Little measured, because it takes large means of large laboratory, inaccessible to DIY.

However, it can be seen as transforming the engine into a steam engine heated by the fuel mixed with, if it burns, and the hot steam expanding more reversibly and closer to the Carnot cycle which gives the best performance.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_de_Carnot

Carnot was looking to cycle as efficiently as possible1. Thus the efficiency of any thermodynamic machine can be compared with the efficiency of the Carnot cycle. It serves as a reference cycle.
The cycle is composed of four processes (two isotherms and two adiabatics reversible:
1: Reversible adiabatic compression
2: Isothermal relaxation
3: Reversible adiabatic relaxation
4: Isothermal compression
Qf heat transfer with the cold source (counted negatively).
Qc thermal transfer with the hot source (counted positively).
Tf absolute temperature of the cold source.
Tc absolute temperature of the hot spring.

yield:
\ eta = 1 - Tf / Tc}

The difficulty is, in an internal combustion engine, what is the hot spring temperature Tc equivalent to the Carnot cycle?
Something like the T of the gases after combustion, approximately Tf = 3000 ° K possible, but, with Tf = 300K the efficiency would then be with Carnot of 1-3000 / 300 = 0,9 = 90%
This is not the case and therefore everything in the engine is very irreversible.
Any modification that makes it more reversible, even by reducing the Tc, can be good !!
So putting water lowers Tc but if this temperature is more uniform, the trigger more reversible, less violent, the yield improves.
In fact if we heat water with fuel of the same volume as this water we can heat it very high in temperature this water and a Carnot cycle of the steam engine type, will have a better performance than that of a typical engine! !
This is to be quantified, with the specific heat of the water, and the calorific value of the fuel, but if we manage to burn water more fuel, and to heat the water included to the maximum with the energy of the fuel, the engine may have a good efficiency, if the whole cycle is much more reversible, a bit like a steam engine heated by fuel with water of the same volume as fuel.

All this to say that a lot of water may not violate the laws of physics of energy conservation.

To encrypt:
fuel about 10KWh / kg or 36000KJ / kg
water less than 4,18KJ / Kg ° K, 3,4 to 220 ° C, under pressure, and therefore by making the report we can heat this water with its fuel weight to 36000 / 4,18 = 8612 ° C
Taking into account the fuel, oxygen and nitrogen - (6 to 8 times more to heat), we have much more than 1000 ° C. for Tf which gives for Carnot:
1-300/1000=0,7=70%
So we have room and the fuel has enough energy to heat its weight of water to a very high Tc, like a real steam engine, with better efficiency than that of a usual engine 50% to 12% ???? !!
http://www.thermexcel.com/french/tables/vap_eau1.htm
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pouvoir_calorifique
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moteur_%C3%A0_explosion
In my opinion this global method of analysis, quantifying the level of irreversibilities, is a method of approach which should allow better identification.
Plenty of water turns the engine into a steam engine that can be efficient if well designed, in terms of energy.

In the case of an automobile engine which seldom operates at high load and always in a transient manner, the actual practical efficiency is much lower. To drive at steady speed at 120 km / h, the majority of cars hardly need more than 25 hp, while the engines can often provide four to eight times more, which leads to a very degraded practical performance. Due to additional losses linked to the transmission, accessories such as power steering and air conditioning, downtime, the actual practical efficiency of a car hardly exceeds 12% 4

In fact the efficiency is limited by what the motors and their materials withstand in temperature, and by the numerous irreversibilities, with a value much lower than the maximum possible !!!

[Alain G]

it's nice to see that we can count on mutual help

so I will allow myself a 1st question:
How do I go about building a nuclear power plant?

no just kidding ;)

in fact I started with the idea of ​​dismantling a car engine and turning it into an electric generator .... (its the basic idea to consume less .... "edf tax") , which over the course of my reading lead to discover the panton system then hho ... which confused me a little about my first idea

at first glance the hho system seems more easily achievable and more profitable, I focused on it.

today on this forum I see that :
1 few people have tested it and those who have not returned its results on this forum
2 that bcp doesn't believe it

result I ask myself the following questions:
1 does the hho system really work (I ask the opinion of anyone who tested it not simply by received idea or disbelief)
2 why so few people at least test this system to get an answer on?

then if I refer to the document dating from 2000 that I found, the panton system works on a simple mower motor independently (see http://www.crazymoto.net/index.php?showsujet=209647), out of what I find now it's ecopra style things, which effectively reduce fuel consumption and pollution, but still keep it coming from the tank .... so question an automobile engine can it operate on the panton system itself (ie water-fuel mixture connect directly to the intake and exhaust)

while waiting for answers I am going to read the post "beginner of christophe who will answer maybe some of my questions

If the HHO worked it would be known, for now we have only a few sites that promote without really a conclusive reproducible prototype!

A car engine to generate electricity would do well if the energy demand is sufficient, using recuperated oil in the case of a diesel engine it could work but do you really need all this power?


The steam engine which is currently neglected would be the best alternative because we can put any fuel / oxidizer in it, but without reserve capacity to store electricity, it comes down to close to the "0" point!

So we make a small wood fire to heat the winter while producing electricity with steam and a small sauna bath to recover MAX energy while sipping a Trappistes Rochefort in the company of good friends of the site econology!


You can add your photo if you feel comfortable here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/post203434.html#203434

At worst we will laugh a little about you according to your face but we tease only those we love!

[hyst]

A car engine to generate electricity would do well if the energy demand is sufficient, using recuperated oil in the case of a diesel engine it could work but do you really need all this power?

in fact in view of my electrical consumption this year (I will answer in euro its will be more telling) I approach 3000euro ... and that just for a family certainly large but which does not include a special machine or other, no electric heater etc ...
of course with a little attention part of the consumption could be avoided ... but have you ever tried to make 6 children understand that you have to turn off the lights when leaving a room? (and again with the economical light bulbs it is not what consumes the most)

so my answer and yes and no, all the power of a car engine is not completely necessary, but the goal is to produce irregularly and not continuously but in order to use large household appliances (machine washing, dryer, etc.) while recharging a series of skippers (at the same time in order to limit the time of use of the heat engine, and this in order to supply part of the light.

I also plan to add a failover system on the network (manual, then automatic (I have the chance to work in a company that manufactures this type of equipment, switchover between source or inverter))

using recovery oil in the case of a diesel engine it could work

that's my intention

If the HHO worked it would be known, for now we have only a few sites that promote without really a conclusive reproducible prototype!

For example: reaction with carbon from the fuel (C + H20 -> H2 + CO). Hydrogen is thus obtained, which will greatly promote combustion. CO is a fuel which will be transformed back into CO2.

(quote taken from one of the articles to which christophe put the link a little above)

So if hydrogen greatly facilitates combustion, the principle of hho, I say to myself why not? and that apparently there is no feedback from the test, I think we should try before saying that its not working ...
without forgetting that a complete kit is:
1 relatively expensive if seriously manufactured by the manufacturer
2 not really "complete" if the vehicle for which it is intended is recent (management of sensors, etc.)
3 that the equipment to add is expensive is not necessarily obvious to settle.
Since I will have to dismantle an engine in order to be able to run it outside the car, I think I will try to run it with 5 or 10L of diesel oil at constant speed, and measure the time it takes me before stopping, then to repeat the experiment with a hho system (dry cell type house construction (apart from the cost of 316L stainless steel this should not present a significant cost, since it will be an old engine without the sensors fitted to vehicles after 1994-96)
I think that should give a little indication of the difference in consumption that the system makes or not.

Besides, I take this opportunity to ask myself if all those who try to use it well (or buy a system) constitute with 316L stainless steel (quite expensive) and not 304L (bcp cheaper but much less good quality ) or other which can have an important influence I think.

I also just read a post from "elephant" which says that the hho seems (or could) work on old models is greedy. I therefore wonder if for my main project, using a mixture of frying oil + fuel + hho would not be profitable since it would not be getting into a vehicle (the laws not prohibiting the use of fuel oil and oil)?

hyst, reassure me you know this page:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/search.php
or for the whole site https://www.econologie.com/forums/search.php ?

Example of 2 summary pages on water doping: https://www.econologie.com/synthese-des- ... -3588.html
https://www.econologie.com/synthese-des- ... -3589.html
The famous plan:
https://www.econologie.com/le-plan-origi ... -2167.html

I know some and others not, but as I said, I disembark and therefore inform myself little by little, and when we look for specific information it's a bit like looking for a needle in a boot of hay considering the size of this forum.... but we end up finding it is the main thing.

[Gaston]

Since I will have to dismantle an engine in order to be able to run it outside the car, I think I will try to run it with 5 or 10L of diesel oil at constant speed, and measure the time it takes me before stopping, then to repeat the experiment with a hho system (dry cell type house construction (apart from the cost of 316L stainless steel this should not present a significant cost, since it will be an old engine without the sensors fitted to vehicles after 1994-96)
I think that should give a little indication of the difference in consumption that the system makes or not.

It's a good idea, and I hope you come back and post the results here.

Do not forget to take into account in your balance sheet the electricity consumption of the electrolyser

[Alain G]

Hello hyst!

You see that I am not a connoisseur of HHO and Elephant for example is much better qualified to answer you on this subject, on the other hand I only ask to see this system work and I remain skeptical!


If you plan to charge batteries with this car engine, you will need a suitable generator either in DC to directly charge the bat pack. or AC to switch directly to the sector!

What did you choose


Inox 316 is not that expensive but it is much more resistant to acids, I know well for having welded them on occasion.

Have a good day!

[hyst]

in fact I thought (must say that it is in the state of the project only in my head for the moment) to drive a motor of fairly large power to supply everything that requires a lot of power, I thought everything first a three-phase motor take a phase and return the neutral on the sector (to see if it is possible in view of the EDF differential ... I would have to revise the neutral regime to have a little idea above) if not a mono engine or several (I haven't bcp yet on this part), as for the batteries I thought to train several alternator (number to be defined) which will recharge the batteries, then convert the battery output with converter 12 / 230v pure and pseudo sinus depending on the use that will be made of it.

I have to read on this forum that with a tri motor, there would be a drop in power when I start a washing machine, so I thought to make an electronic assembly which will activate the accelerator by means of a stepper motor which would wind a cable ..... the problem is that if I increase the speed of the heat engine I will have a higher frequency ... and going through a variator is too expensive

Finally I specify that I plan to separate my device from the sector when turn on the group by a contactor system.

[alaniesse]

In HHO systems, the best systems work without adding any product to improve conduction at the water level.
As soon as you add an additive to the water, it becomes dirty, it foams in the tank, it starts to feel regular maintenance.

Running on reverse osmosis acid water is the easiest way to keep something clean.

In the United States and Canada, they are fond of the HHO system by electrolysis.
Look on ebay, it goes in all directions, but there is stuff.

The "Pantone" in general, has no torque, the tests and research of Christophe made a few years ago give a very good update on the results.

The first super reactor was developed by Jean François Mirabella in 2007. The 80% water bar was reached a few months later and above all by exceeding performance in terms of power, torque and consumption.

This gave an unusual aspect, which means that this reactor has been criticized and that it has been taken as a scam.
As Christophe says, communication was very poorly done at the time.
It is true.

Often those who have ideas do not know how to talk about them well.

The super reactor approaching 100% water offers a solution to the production of energy and heat all over the world.

it represents the means of eventually replacing the heart of the power stations to produce heat, steam, and therefore to run the alternators.

we consume water, we spit water.
In order to cool the exhaust gases, we recover the water at the outlet.
will we speak, one day of perpetual movement in the water, before finally developing the perpetual magnetic movements.

Here is.

[dedeleco]

in fact in view of my electricity consumption this year (I will answer in euros it will be more meaningful) I approach 3000euro ...

almost double what I spend to heat myself in a house not well insulated in the modern sense !!
It must be hot in summer in this house with all these lamps that heat ???

There must be a way to save money by educating children or with automatic switch-off as soon as you no longer move around the room !!

This before a complex electric generator.

[dedeleco]

The super reactor approaching 100% water offers a solution to the production of energy and heat all over the world.

it seems supernatural, without fuel, sufficient to heat the equivalent steam engine, and so true it's a scientific revolution to study thoroughly immediately with very large means.