Horizontal wind turbine on vehicle

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highfly-addict
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by highfly-addict » 11/12/08, 20:51

Bravo and thank you to Olivier22!

Nothing to say; there the numbers speak.



8)
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iridium
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by iridium » 12/12/08, 10:19

what olivier22 did, was what I expected and what I asked from the start.
Thank you to you Olivier.
My email by MP for the excel sheet please !?

while highflyaddict.
let me laugh you come to criticize, while you are not fucked up to demonstrate what you think as olivier22 did.
This is what I have been asking from the start.
so don't go into your delirium like "" "iridium you ask so shut your mouth" "".
in summary is its !!!!!
one wonders which of the two has an ego problem.
the one who poses a question publicly without fear that his theory will be refuted or the one who allows himself to be criticized in a humiliating manner without bringing anything constructive !!!!
I would have done well with your intervention on the subject.
when I think you were lecturing at the outset by saying that you can't stand people who waste their time on an idea that dies in line.
I can't stand guys who have nothing else to do but waste time annoying others.

I do not quite agree with the simulation of olive.
because its simulation represents a wind turbine or ventilator at a standstill facing a constant wind speed.
in reality the wind turbine turns and is comparable to a large grid which slows down the air flow but which creates energy.
But now that someone has answered my questions and will give me tools for work, I will finally be able to look into the subject.

a+
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Olivier22
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by Olivier22 » 12/12/08, 16:39

Hi, I emailed it to you
To answer you, the wind turbine is not represented as a stopped fan: the "wall" is a symbol. I simply represented it as a source of pressure drop, like the engine compartment. The difference is that the load lost by the compartment is not recovered, while the load lost by the wind turbine is recovered at 80% (the efficiency of the wind turbine), and this energy is reinjected into the result. final (the actual loss takes this into account).
So here, don't worry, the wind turbine is working well 8)

Dirk pitt: if you want the document I need your email!
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LudoTools
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The idea is not great ...




by LudoTools » 13/12/08, 11:27

Hey ... with "inventors / researchers" such as all those who defend "the on-board wind turbine", I wonder (very seriously) why we continue to fear the shortage of oil ...
First rule of thumb that you seem to forget: nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed!.

When i read this
Quote:
Basically, adding a wind turbine on a car (or "in" as you want, it's the same) it is like adding a device that brakes it and which recovers AT BEST 59% of the additional energy spent to maintain speed at the same level.

Well, I hope I helped a little to light your candle.

I say to myself "here is one who understood and does not dream ...
And when I read this:
If we start from this principle just the fact of getting into your car modifies the CX ??? "" "besides the displacement of the suspension linked to the load" "" "
is the first time I hear her.
its makes me laugh but hey its grave its really exists.

so there ... i'm sad.
And one, when you get in your car, you are not exposed to the air (closed enclosure) so the Cx does not change ... so a wind turbine in the car by your side, er ... that might be nice, but that's it!
If you put it in the grille, then necessarily, for it to be activated, it will slow down the air circulation (therefore change the Cx!).
So to maintain your initial speed, you have to provide a little bit more energy ... but it will be at least twice as much as you will recover (Benz's Law).

If this had some chance of working, it would have been a long time since we installed fans at the rear of the sailboats to make them move forward ;-)

In summary, and to conclude this subject, as I said in the title, the idea is not great ... no, it is stupid from an energy balance point of view!
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Olivier22
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by Olivier22 » 13/12/08, 16:46

In fact, she is not that stupid.
Without a wind turbine, there is a pressure drop of the air entering through the radiator grille due to friction and eddies against the engine and its compartment: loss obviously not recovered.
With a wind turbine, there is a loss from the input (recovered) and a loss against the motor, but the latter is reduced (because of the energy already lost and the expression of the particular pressure losses).

Iridium was right to think that, with a wind turbine, although the total loss is greater, the reduction of the loss against the engine compartment is preponderant and allows the system to be efficient.

Bernoulli's law shows that this is not the case (the total loss is preponderant compared to the reduction of the unrecovered loss).
But, come to think of it, it was not super intuitive ...
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JLB
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wind turbine on vehicle




by JLB » 15/12/08, 11:50

Starting with a good intention, your idea is likely to lead to nothing.
To simplify, consider a vertical axis wind turbine, which, in the event of an accident is not too likely to turn into a meat grinder, and which in addition does not have to orient itself facing the wind, and as a bonus may have a pleasant aesthetic.

The most favorable case: tail wind: it adds to the speed of the vehicle according to their relative speeds, as a bonus, automobiles and trucks are profiled to "split" the air from the front, not from the rear! If we add the wind turbine or luggage on the roof, the effect is more or less the same: from the front we lose more energy than we recover (or not much), from the rear that must be debatable.
The only really profitable case: side wind. In any case, it neither brakes nor strongly accelerates the vehicle.

On the other hand, what remains to be determined is how to store this energy until it is used (to brake for example). Add batteries? we add to the mass of the vehicle
A lot of reserve where a lot of mass (+ cost + pollution of extraction manufacturing recycling) not to mention the electrical regulation part.

I too had considered this kind of thing: recovering part of the kinetic energy generally transformed into heat to use it when the engine is stressed beyond its best performance (sudden acceleration, steep slope ...). On trucks, electric retarders help recharge the batteries, but the excess energy is dissipated in resistors, the batteries generally being unable to absorb it quickly enough or being sufficiently charged.
My first idea: to store this energy by turning a flywheel with a fairly massive vertical axis located under the car. It would also be beneficial to help bring the car to the ground by gyroscopic effect, but beware of the undesirable consequences: the car would tend to "nose down" in the hills and take off when coming down! And I'm not talking about the chopper in the event of an accident! (if I mention it)

It would probably be necessary, to avoid this gyroscopic aspect for the wind turbine, to have two superimposed contra-rotating wind turbines (which I had also considered for my massive flying utopians).

No doubt valid on trucks, large motorhomes, etc. where the relative cost of the equipment would be unimportant. By cons, on an automobile ???
The only solution that seems possible to me (without encryption) is air compression, but we end up with a small bomb in the event of an accident. Not that it risks exploding by deflagration of combustible gas, but by intensifying a fire.

Conclusion: a good idea is not enough, it must also pass the security barrier.
What would you think if your wife and children were turned into minced steak because of equipment of this style, poorly maintained and falling from a vehicle?
PS: it's not a reason to give up working your neurons ...
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Olivier22
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by Olivier22 » 15/12/08, 12:48

No one talked about putting a wind turbine on the roof
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iridium
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by iridium » 15/12/08, 13:05

a lot of the flywheel stuff.
Besides, we see that you worked on it at the point of anticipating the gyroscopic effect.
I suppose that you had thought of implanting the system in the wheels !!!
in fact in the case that I describe was in the use of an electric vehicle.
so the problem does not arise too much.

I opened your olive tree Xls, everything works fine.
Only worries.
Is that I would have liked to symbolize the complete vehicle in a tube "" "you see the kind" "" ".
with good on the frontal air intakes and the wind turbine.
To know the percentage loss that can be attributed to the wind turbine on the total sum.
Because even if your demonstration speaks volumes.
I tell myself that the dimensions of a 1Kw wind turbine are small and that for driving at 90km / h with a light quadricycle I estimate that it takes about 10KW to the engine.
knowing that 6KW on a 2 wheel can reach 90Km / h, while the Cx of 2 wheels is almost 2 times higher than that of a car.

short even if your results are speaking there is something wrong.
I think that we can easily recover 10% of energy and I am convinced that a simu as you do it but on the entirety of the vehicle allows the advanced fact that the Cx is modified by a negligible value lower at 10%.

I think tlm agrees with the above.
but in this case késako!?!?!?!?!?
Admitted that it was strange !!!! :? :? :? :? :?

a+

PS: a horizontal wind turbine as I speak is relatively light and quickly deforms.
But I understand your fears about this moving piece ..

a+
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Olivier22
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by Olivier22 » 15/12/08, 13:33

Hello,
To represent the complete vehicle in a flow, if you know the SCx of the vehicle it is enough to separate the flow in 2: the part entering the grille (calculated in my file) and the part passing around the bodywork, the loss of which is calculated with the SCx (this SCx not taking into account the grille, obviously ...)

But anyway as I indicated, the values ​​obtained are not real at all (pressure drop coefs = ??? Air speed under the hood = ???)
The goal is simply to show that in any case, we lose more energy to the air flow (therefore, in absolute reference, to the vehicle) than we recover with the wind turbine.
Afterwards, the total Cx, we don't know it and it doesn't change anything. If you have a large wind turbine that produces a lot in a car with a very low Cx you may increase the SCx by 25%; if the wind turbine is small and not very powerful, and the car is a mirror cabinet, it will increase it perhaps by 1%; but whatever happens you will gain nothing

If not for your car / motorcycle comparison, certainly a motorcycle has a terrible Cx but it also has a riquiqui master-couple, which makes it generally more aerodynamic than a car!


And if not for the energy recovery blow by flywheel, that will always pose problems in particular related to the precession (vertical axis: the pitch generates roll and vice versa. Longitudinal horizontal axis: the lace generates pitch and vice versa. Horizontal transverse axis: the lace generates rolling and vice versa) In short, it would make more a fairground carousel than a car
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dirk pitt
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by dirk pitt » 15/12/08, 14:46

Iridium wrote:a lot of the flywheel stuff.
Besides, we see that you worked on it at the point of anticipating the gyroscopic effect.
I suppose that you had thought of implanting the system in the wheels !!!


: Shock: : Shock: : Shock: : Shock: : Shock:

ask yourself the question why we make light alloy rims?

it's to look pretty :?: :?:
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