Anti-Nox technologies WATER VS VS EGR SCR (AdBlue, urea)

Tips, advice and tips to lower your consumption, processes or inventions as unconventional engines: the Stirling engine, for example. Patents improving combustion: water injection plasma treatment, ionization of the fuel or oxidizer.
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79126
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10974

Anti-Nox technologies WATER VS VS EGR SCR (AdBlue, urea)




by Christophe » 06/10/15, 13:44

Comparative of MAN very interesting (but lacking some technical details ... we will refine!) On DeNox technologies used by engine manufacturers

Source: https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... t0rQOG.pdf (conference by Marcos PAGOTO, Senior Engineer, R&D Engineering Medium Speed, MAN Diesel & Turbo)

This concerns large marine diesel engines running on heavy fuel oil:
Image

6 possible methods of NOx reduction:

Image

Internal =? = Management of the motor parameters I presume? (advance, injection time, pressure ...)
FWE = Fuel Water Emulsion = water-fuel emulsion, the aquazole of the 90 years (which raises concerns of stability over time and requires surfactants that increase the price of fuel)
HAM = Humid Air Motor = water injection
EGR = Exhaust Gas Recirculation = exhaust gas recirculation
SCR = Selectiv Catalys Reduction = Selective Catalytic Reduction = Adblue / Urea Injection
Gas =? (natural gas engine?)

Regarding the water injection part, HAM, a dedicated topic has been done here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/ham-inject ... 14241.html

HAM = water injection (decrease of the average temperature in the engine + other cool effects)

Image

EGR = decrease in temperature peaks during combustion. MAN Endoscopy:

Image

SCR = urea exhaust injection

Image

And here is certainly the most interesting slide (for us):

Image

I really like the "simple and ecological" ...

In my opinion, the benefits clearly go to HAM (unless we want to reduce more than 70% ... in this case nothing prevents to combine HAM + SCR ... except the global cost ...)

The only drawback of HAM technology: an installation cost 4 times higher than the SCR! For a 12 MW motor, at 200 € / kW, that adds up to 2.4 M €! It's a lot! Yet they say "simple" ??

I think that the "ex-factory" price (= not installed) of a 12 MW MAN engine is in the order of 10 to 15 M € ... the HAM surcharge is therefore around, engine installed ( in the factory or on a boat, let's start on a basis of 20M €) at least 10 to 15%.

For now I do not understand this extra compared to the SCR technology, complex too.

Maybe the desalination part counts for a lot in the price? (and useless in the case of a terrestrial engine).

Using seawater was but why not condensed (at least partly) the water from the exhaust? (more universal solution).

Too bad that this doc is only interested in NOx, there is a good chance that the injection of water also greatly reduces the unburned (carbon + water + temperature = H2 + CO2).

I would like to contact Marcos PAGOTO to answer these questions ...
Last edited by Christophe the 06 / 10 / 15, 14: 25, 1 edited once.
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 06/10/15, 14:08

For FWE, I found "Fuel Water Emulsion"

http://www.exomission.de/index.php/en/t ... ulsion-kwe

This is probably the famous diesel-water emulsion called aquazole by fire ELF:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mulsion_eau_gazole
Last edited by Did67 the 06 / 10 / 15, 14: 30, 1 edited once.
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79126
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10974




by Christophe » 06/10/15, 14:24

Ah great, thank you didier! Long live community research.

This is the famous aquazole so! (which poses stability problems over time)
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 06/10/15, 14:32

Sorry, I edited to add the name, while you answered [I did not find the name immediately in my memory - I was on a false track, econazole, which is anti-mycotic!]
0 x
User avatar
Flytox
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 14138
Registration: 13/02/07, 22:38
Location: Bayonne
x 839




by Flytox » 06/10/15, 19:13

Did67 wrote:This is probably the famous diesel-water emulsion called aquazole by fire ELF:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mulsion_eau_gazole


Aquazole

Aquazole was an example of a water-diesel emulsion invented by Charles Miriel and marketed by Elf during the 1990 years, to the patented formulation: an emulsion of diesel (85%) and water (13%), stabilized at using specific additives, including an organic emulsifier (2%).

According to a study of the ADEME2 performed on buses, the use of aquazole leads to a drop in engine power, as well as an increase of about 10% of consumption compared to diesel. For example "since 1997, the RATP is experimenting with various fuels: diesel, ... aquazole (10% water mixture in 90% diesel) 3 ...".


From memory, the study of the ADEME was done on various buses / machines while adapting a minimum of thing (injectors). These engines have never been originally designed for this. As a result, the announced performances may not be those whose technology is capable.

With the technology of sequential high pressure injection etc ... current, there must be way to recover other performances ...
Especially that this project may have been buried a little fast ..... may not be the taste of some lobbyists : Mrgreen:
0 x
Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.
[Eugène Ionesco]
http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79126
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10974




by Christophe » 06/10/15, 19:44

Ok ... why bother with a fuel even more chemical than oil, not stable, more expensive and has mechanical disadvantages?

And especially who would remain in the hands ... tankers and states ... while water ... no need for them to inject into the engines: there are everywhere ...

In addition, the water for it to have a positive effect in an engine must be misted ... after I agree with you, maybe a motor designed specifically for aquazole should have been developed ...

In short for me aquazole is a dead project ... but it had the merit of existing and shows that there were interests to put water in the combustion ...

Here is another more complete report than the wiki page. quite contradictory with the report of the ADEME ...

https://www.econologie.com/par-elf-l-aqu ... es-72.html

On wiki the link to the report of ADEME is HS while it is not on econo: https://www.econologie.com/experimentati ... t-468.html

Addition of water in the fuel of a diesel engine: the aquazole

Keywords: diesel, clean water, addition, pollution, drop, smoke, aquazole, Aquasole

Download the report of Ademe entitled: EXPERIMENTATION OF FUEL AQUAZOLE ® ON BUS FLEETS: https://www.econologie.com/experimentati ... t-468.html


This page explains, in part, the findings seen on water-doped vehicles like our Zx (see the "Our experiment" page). The most interesting parts are in bold italics. Yet despite these results, dating from before 1998, and from a large oil group, aquazole is still not (officially) sold to the general public ... Why?

The water emulsion in the gas oil

A new type of fuel for diesel engines (Fuel Supplement Energy and Commodities letter No. 5-3 1998ème quarter)

In recent 30 years consumption of diesel has increased 7. It went from Mt 3,5 1967 to 24,5 1997 Mt, primarily due to the growth of freight transport which today represents approximately 60% of consumption (the 40% remaining correspond to the consumption of private vehicles).

Meanwhile, awareness of the pollution caused by transport led to a gradual hardening of a part of the emission regulations and also the quality of fuels.

The development of catalytic converters 3 tracks on the exhaust ignition engines fueled by unleaded petrol has reduced so sensitive pollutant emissions (CO, NOx, HC). For diesel engines, control of pollutant emissions was found more difficult to achieve.

Also many research programs have been launched to reduce pollution from diesel vehicles as by manufacturers by tankers.

It is in this context that ELF Antar FRANCE done for several years studies on a new type of fuel consisting of an emulsion of water in the diesel fuel, stable and usable by the diesel engine without modification.

Indeed, the benefits of water injection in a diesel engine type are known from the beginning of the century: possibility of increasing the compression ratio and the specific power, removal of deposits, reductions in emissions of NOx and soot due in particular to the lowering of the temperature of the combustion chamber.

The water content has been optimized to obtain the best efficiency in terms of reducing emissions of NOx and soot pollutants on the one hand, and emulsion stability on the other hand. The relevance of the new fuel type lies in its stability characteristics acquired through purely organic additives that contain neither metal nor halogenated compound, which will have no effect on the exhaust emissions.

The gas oil base in the composition of the EEG fully meets the European standard EN 590, in effect, that defines the European commercial diesel.

Initially, the new fuel (EEG, emulsion of water in Diesel) will be intended for diesel vehicles fleets of professional and easy to appovisionner with a specific logistics (bus, buses, garbage trucks, cleaning vehicles of roads, locomotives and diesel engines), as well as fixed installations (power generators).

Before the first results in the reduction of pollutant emissions, the DHYCA and other authorities concerned expressed interest. They authorized the ELF Company to undertake trials to build a case for approval and then the unmarked marketing of this new type of fuel.

I - EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS OBTAINED

From an optimized formulation (water, gas oil additive) taking into account:

the stability of the emulsion,
- emission reductions,
- the operability of the engine (power variation, adjustments, technical monitoring),

tests were undertaken both laboratory and engine bench or vehicle, in partnership with a manufacturer of trucks, urban transport companies, municipal corporations or removal of garbage or cleaning.

1.1 Emulsion stability

This is the primary criterion to satisfy, without which there could be no EEG fuel. Various aspects of stability have been studied and related problems solved: storage stability (the product holds more than 4 months), stability at low temperatures, stability to sudden changes in temperature, oxidation stability, resistance to bacterial contamination

1. 2 Reduced pollutant emissions reported emissions of commercial diesel

The environmental benefit is significant for heavy-duty engines, especially the older MAN SC10 engines, which are used on city buses.

It is found, by measurements carried out on standardized cycles (European cycle R49-13 modes, AUTONAT cycle, AQA-RATP cycle, RVI cycle, etc ...), for a fuel EEG compared with the diesel entering in the formulation of the EEG:

- a reduction of NOx emissions from 15 to 30%;
- a reduction of fumes and soot from 30 to 80%;
- a reduction of particulate emissions from 10 to 80%.

These results will be refined and optimized based on the composition of the EEG, notammant of the water content of the sulfur content of diesel fuels, depending also on future types and new engine emissions control technologies. Then the results should be confirmed by durability tests of performance obtained.

1. 3 Reducing energy consumption

Compared to the "diesel" base, there is a slight tendency to reduce energy consumption by approximately 2%, which can be explained by a more complete combustion of the hydrocarbons in the presence of water and thus leading to a slight improvement in efficiency.

1. 4 Maintenance and technical and statistical monitoring of vehicles powered by EEG

A hundred vehicles today use EEG as fuel (buses, coaches, skips). Since May 1995, 3 urban bus rolled over 250000 km without major incident or event wear. Kilometers traveled by all vehicles now approaching 100 600 000 km.

The technical and statistical monitoring of engines and equipment powered by EEG is performed according to an ELF / IVR protocol that includes an analysis of risks related to the use.

Extending over several years, it will focus on well-defined sample of vehicles. The protocol calls for IFP acting as expert.

II - THE METHODOLOGY TO CHARACTERIZE THE NEW TYPE OF EEG FUEL

In a first time ELF has developed a test protocol, validated by its own control laboratories comprising firstly the characterization of the actual emulsion and on the other hand characterization of the GET used as fuel diesel engine with demarcated test methods for conventional oil methods listed in European standard EN 590 defining diesel.

The inclusion of test methods proposed by ELF, both by the Administration (DHYCA, DGDDI, DGCCRF) as both oil and automobile industries concerned (Heavyweight), requires approval work characteristics, validation and standardization of test methods by the Bureau de Normalisation du Petrole (OISP), French standards organization of test methods for petroleum products.

This work relied on interlaboratory tests organized as part of OISP missions, lead to standardization. They should be launched in the coming months and take place over a year.

It should then be possible to define the specifications ensuring merchantability EEG for their use as diesel fuel.

Finally, to reach the stage of commercialization, EEG fuel should be subject to all the procedures concerning the release for consumption of a new fuel, including notification to the European authorities in accordance with 83 / 189 Directive.

III - CONCLUSION

In conclusion, the emulsion of water in diesel (EEG) appears as a new type of clean fuel, for truck diesel engine, likely to significantly reduce pollutant emissions especially NOx, soot and particles, usable immediately without significant modification of the engines and equipment of existing vehicles.

However, there is still work to confirm and deepen the environmental benefits as well as sustainability tests. Moreover, in order to achieve its release for consumption, even for captive professional fleets, which are easy to supply, it is necessary to have recognized specifications relating to precise characteristics measured by standardized test methods, in accordance with the relevant procedures. French administrative authorities and in accordance with the European technical regulations.

All these conditions are met, the next one to two years, a new type of fuel, the GET, should be released.

According to the Ministry of Economy, Finance and Industry, 15 / 06 / 1999
0 x
User avatar
Flytox
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 14138
Registration: 13/02/07, 22:38
Location: Bayonne
x 839




by Flytox » 06/10/15, 21:48

Christophe wrote:Ok ... why bother with a fuel even more chemical than oil, not stable, more expensive and has mechanical disadvantages?

And especially that would remain in the hands ... tankers and states ... while water ... no need to inject them into the engines: there are everywhere ...



There are possible and already existing variations on how to inject water. Among others, those where the water is stored independently of the GO. No need for Aquazole and other substitutes, emulsifiers etc ... : Mrgreen:

Here is another more complete report than the wiki page. quite contradictory with the report of the ADEME ...

https://www.econologie.com/par-elf-l-aqu ... es-72.html

On wiki the link to the report of ADEME is HS while it is not on econo: https://www.econologie.com/experimentati ... t-468.html


Indeed, we were entitled to a few articles not very fitting (some contradictions also in the same report of ADEME) ... Finally when we see who finances who, and who earns money with the TIPP, that's already more fitting. : Mrgreen:
0 x
Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.

[Eugène Ionesco]

http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79126
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10974




by Christophe » 06/10/15, 22:54

Flytox wrote:No need for Aquazole and other substitutes, emulsifiers etc ... : Mrgreen:


Bin, that's a little what I just said ...
0 x
User avatar
wirbelwind262
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 238
Registration: 29/06/05, 11:58
Location: Fouras
x 29




by wirbelwind262 » 09/10/15, 19:40

Bonsoir
I found this: a thesis on the use of water to reduce NOx (Wärtsilä)
http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get/di ... TEXT01.pdf
@+
0 x
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491




by Janic » 12/10/15, 15:34

0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Special motors, patents, fuel consumption reduction"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 171 guests