# thermal storage car engine for ECS

Tips, advice and tips to lower your consumption, processes or inventions as unconventional engines: the Stirling engine, for example. Patents improving combustion: water injection plasma treatment, ionization of the fuel or oxidizer.
chatelot16
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

Obamot wrote:hey hey, yes that's the problem of dihydrogen, it's: BAAAAOOOOUUUM.

it's the season with Christmas carols

in tanen BAAAAOOOOUUUM

my beautiful fir in German
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Christophe
Moderator
posts: 78799
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10843

Not at all: h2 buffer thermal storage can be very reliable since there is no exchange of material ... only calories.

After filling, the tank can be securely sealed ...

After we have nothing without anything lol
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Forhorse
Econologue expert
posts: 2479
Registration: 27/10/09, 08:19
Location: Perche Ornais
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Yes, but...
If we're talking about gas, what volume of H2 is needed to get 1Kg (I think it's a very light gas)?
In a commercial pressure bottle (~ 200bars) we put not tens of m3 so the weight of H2 will be very limited and therefore the amount of energy potentially stored not huge.
it makes lugging very heavy reversers for a mass of storage very low.
If we are talking about the liquid, what is the liquefaction / boiling temperature of the H2?

EDIT:
some figures to illustrate the point I wanted to highlight in my previous message.

in a cylinder of industrial gas type B50 we put 10m3 hydrogen 200 bars
10m3 hydrogen weighing 0.898Kg
A B50 bottle weighs 75Kg empty.

A charge of 76Kg in the car will be able to store (for a charge to 80 ° and a use to 40 °)
0.898*10140*40= 364kJ (H2)
75 * 444 * 40 = 1332kJ (bottle)
be total = 1696kJ

Now consider that for the same load (76Kg) containing deductions, we can ship 65 Kg of water.
we will be able to store
65 * 4185 * 40 = 10881kJ
(and again I neglect the container)

there's no picture; and in addition we do not lug a bomb in power.
And I am sure that if we redo the calculation at a load 250 ° (H2) versus a load always 80 ° (H2O) the winner is the water.
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chatelot16
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
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there is no need to look for: at medium temperature water is the best way of storing heat ... and in addition water costs almost nothing

the water has a mass heat remarkably superior to all the other bodies

the hydrogen is interresting in mass heat, but none in voluminal heat ... and when one wants to increase the quantity by compressing it the weight of the tank spoils everything

so it's useless to search with the hydrogen alone ... it seems that by chance water is the richest body in hydrogen ... it's a little that's what makes it so hot
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gildas
Grand Econologue
posts: 879
Registration: 05/03/10, 23:59
x 173

Hello,

The lost heat of the heat engines can be recovered to convert it into electricity, it is the Rankine system.
This electricity is used to recharge a battery on a hybrid car or to electrolyze water into hydrogen to help fuel the engine fuel.
The device can be expensive, complex and bulky, but very interesting for intensive use!

Edit: It would be interesting to know which fluid (to recover calories) is used in the Rankine cycle ...
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chatelot16
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

if the engine of the car was better optimized, the temperature of the exhaust would be very low and there would be nothing to recover by an additional rankine cycle

this solution exists: it is called cycle of miller: I think that it will put the current engine in the oubliette, that it is petrol or diesel

it already exists partially: turbocompound engine of some big truck

it is also applied to the methane generator methane schnell (methanizer a obernay)
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chatelot16
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
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there are multiple ways to reduce the energy consumption of a car ... but it must be built ... it is not available immediately

recover heat every time the car goes to the garage it can be done without inventing anything on any car ... it could be done simply with the heat accumulated in the cooling water and the mass of the engine without seeking add extra storage

it would be small wins, but simple, just 2 quick connector on the water circuit, a pump a heat exchanger and a thermostat that cuts the pump when there is more heat to recover

it could also be justified by a reverse function when it is very cold: preheating the engine for a better start in the morning: finally seen the softness of the last winters rarely useful
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gildas
Grand Econologue
posts: 879
Registration: 05/03/10, 23:59
x 173

chatelot16 wrote:
it could also be justified by a reverse function when it is very cold: preheating the engine for a better start in the morning: finally seen the softness of the last winters rarely useful

Despite the simplicity would have to undo / connect each time ...

Given the price of the nuclear Kw, if the car is parked in the same place and used at the same hours, a development in the garage floor to put a heater blowing under the oil sump ... A trigger one hour before the start of the engine?
Advantages: Less engine wear and less pollution every morning.
To meditate...

Sorry for the hs.
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cortejuan
Éconologue good!
posts: 254
Registration: 01/12/10, 19:34
Location: Franche-Comté
x 6

Hello,

The problem with hydrogen is its ability to cross solid barriers like steel. It is more or less liquefiable and gaseous hydrogen tanks are very complex to achieve because they have to withstand gigantic pressures (mini 800 bars). Hence other solutions such as hydrides (hydrogen sponges).

Its ability to cross the walls requires the establishment of ejectable ceilings in labs using this gas. This is one of the handicaps to the development of hydrogen fuel cells. In 2005, a boss of a car group explained that we had to wait for 2015 to see the real start of the hydrogen car. The takeoff is really modest ...

cordially
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chatelot16
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

Gildas wrote:Despite the simplicity would have to undo / connect each time ...

I agree that it would be very restrictive for a very low benefit ... not to mention the risk of leaving forgetting to unplug ... it should in addition a security that prevents the demarage

there is easily more heat to be gained by a solar water heater that will work by itself
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