How to save fuel? HHO Dry Cell

[I Citro]

I hardly dare to imagine the price, the fall of autonomy at the end of the life of the batteries and the price of the standard exchange of the batteries

Well, you have to dare, nlc the fact ...

He even reconfigured his order between the signature of the voucher and the start of production because the rates had significantly decreased (a few thousand €). In the end, he pays less for it with more options.
Now, it's too late, she's out of the factory ...
Accumulators are guaranteed 8 years and 200.000km (or unlimited mileage on 85kWh model).

The price starts from € 60.000, but I believe it has fallen further. The brand's future SUV will be even cheaper ... while waiting for "popular" models.

Regarding the possible exchange standard, the car is also usable with fast battery exchange system (in 90 seconds), we can imagine the exchange of the pack after 8 years.

An industrialist of my acquaintance told me recently that the price of the batteries had been divided by 5 since 5 years to move from 1000 to 200 € currently per kWh of capacity. 17.000 € at the current price for the largest battery (85kWh).

[I Citro]

a look of English sportswoman (those who have a fawn on the hood) [........] up to 7 places ...

The two things are compatible, in my opinion ... ;-)

And yet, they are quite compatible and these places retractable (back to the road with a harness 5 points, formula1 way.) Are places of choice, quite rewarding (I tried the car).
They are retractable in the trunk, and as welcoming (more in my opinion) than in many minivans 5 + 2places.

As the car has a large trunk under the front bonnet, it is not even necessary to choose between luggage and passengers, unlike most minivans.
(To go on vacation to 7 or 8, I add a luggage trailer behind my minivan ...)

[1360]

a look of English sportswoman (those who have a fawn on the hood) [........] up to 7 seats

The two things are compatible, in my opinion ...

I take back what I said, I just read the "commercial" for this car.

It is indeed beautiful (although it looks much more like a Maserati than a Jaguar), and it is actually a 5 + 2 places.

Come on, to hurt herself: How much does the beauty cost?

A+

[I Citro]

Come on, to hurt herself: How much does the beauty cost?

I already answered...
From 60.000 € (prices fall regularly).
The model I tried with almost all the options (but new options appeared) was at the time above 100.000 €, the price of their previous model which was less efficient, less autonomous, less luxurious, less comfortable, ... And had only 2 places ...

It's a bargain, it's already cheaper than many German sedans that are less efficient and less well-equipped than they want to compete.
If you take into account the fuel economy and the revisions, that's the deal of the century.

[Janic]

Hello Citro

This is the typical example of a response conditioned by the media ...

It's just! The point is to know which media condition individuals and therefore each one chooses those that echo his or her own beliefs or needs. So this point can be put aside.

I am therefore going to reframe your remarks and recall the realities ... 1 / "For the moment" is not scientific and replacing nuclear power with renewable energy can be done at the same pace as replacing the fleet. Currently, the electric car is useful by consuming surplus nuclear production at night (in France, only), so this is not a problem.

Except that the anti-CO2 policy would like to quickly replace thermal vehicles by electric and the symbiosis between the two is not for tomorrow, even if tomorrow is not more scientific than for the moment ... or "currently" (ah, those technocrats!)
Then night overproduction is invokable only out of periods of extreme cold where, for now always, many heaters are electric and where renewable energy can not meet an instant demand either.
So indeed the electric can only appear as an "ideal" solution in the fight against the CO2.
Finally, I mentioned the batteries only as a problem among others. There remains, for example, the problem of producing conductive materials such as copper, which is becoming scarce and whose price is exploding while electric motors are heavy consumers and can not, for now, be replaced by aluminum, for example, which will eventually pose the same problem (the manufacture of aluminum is also one of the most polluting industrial products).
Finally, always, "we" play on an artificial price of electricity which will necessarily increase and lose its attraction for the future electric conductor (except to produce its own electricity which is only possible for a few rare individuals living outside large urban centers). In addition, the State premiums will not last forever (assuming an explosion in demand for this type of vehicle) and therefore the price will become dissuasive again because, whether by purchase of batteries or by rental, all expenses combined. is as "expensive" as combustion vehicles.
So we go around in circles trying to replace a blind man with a one-eyed man ... or vice versa!

[I Citro]

Ha I like the debate of ideas.

This is the typical example of a response conditioned by the media ...

It's just! The point is to know which media condition individuals and therefore each one chooses those that echo his or her own beliefs or needs. So this point can be put aside.

Of course, but I was referring to the mass media, not to the alternative and independent media, usually paid for. The main media in the hands of large groups are only propaganda tools ... The day that FREE launched into telephony, TF1 which belongs to BOUYGUES, a competitor of FREE, ignored the information. When we know that most of the media belong to "arms dealers", we understand better why there are so many wars ...

Currently, the electric car is doing good service by consuming the surplus of nuclear production at night

Except that the policy anti CO2 would like to quickly replace the thermal vehicles by electric and the symbiosis between the two is not for tomorrow, ... Then the overproduction night is only invokable outside periods of great cold. .. So indeed the electric can only appear as an "ideal" solution in the fight against the CO2.

Replacing "quickly" is an illusion, factories must produce, customers must buy, it will take decades because the fleet has an average age of 7 years, it represents around 30 million vehicles and the 2 million sold by year will continue to decrease ...
All the objections that you form can therefore be swept away and in the first place that of the winter heating peak which is not a problem for the development of the electric car. In fact, heating during a cold snap is not the last straw, it's just another faucet that opens and empties the tank faster than it fills. This problem is very short in time slot (when the population comes home while the companies are still active and when it gets up in the morning). So just shift the load of electric vehicles, which is already the majority of users of electric vehicles that like me charge in off-peak hours because of reduced rates ...

Finally, I mentioned the batteries only as a problem among others. There remains, for example, the problem of producing conductive materials such as copper, which is becoming scarce and whose price is exploding while electric motors are heavy consumers and can not, for now, be replaced by aluminum, for example, which will eventually pose the same problem (the manufacture of aluminum is also one of the most polluting industrial products).

These are not issues, but strategic issues and challenges.
You have to know what you want! If we stay there doing nothing, as you suggest, we will soon be a third world country. Our main current resources are to resell our garbage cans to China and India for retransformation into high-tech consumer goods.
Research, Innovation, Re-industrialization, ... MUST be part of the energy TRANSITION program.
There are no problems, there are only solutions.
BATTERIES, MOTORS, ... There are already technological solutions to overcome the problems you are talking about. We discover every day ways to design batteries with new materials, cheaper, less rare (salt, carbon, air, ...), less strategic (extracts from seawater, for example ).
We know how to design ultra-light, powerful, cage-less engines that use little or no copper, or metal, thanks to recent discoveries on electromagnetism.

Finally, always, "we" play on an artificial price of electricity which will necessarily increase and lose its attraction for the future electric conductor (except to produce its own electricity which is only possible for a few rare individuals living outside large urban centers). In addition, the State premiums will not last forever (assuming an explosion in demand for this type of vehicle) and therefore the price will become dissuasive again because, whether by purchase of batteries or by rental, all expenses combined. is as "expensive" as combustion vehicles.
So we go around in circles trying to replace a blind man with a one-eyed man ... or vice versa!

It's your reasoning that goes around in circles:
- The "rare individuals" (thank you for them) who do not live in urban centers are precisely those who can produce the energy (positive energy housing) that they consume and who may reasonably need a car.
- The inhabitants of large urban centers must not have a car (it is inefficient and cumbersome, its night parking will be eventually no longer allowed on the public space, it will be paid and overpriced).
- State bonuses do not benefit customers but manufacturers. The batteries have for example seen their price divided by 5 on 5 last years ... We are just beginning to see the repercussion for the consumer, except to get supplies in China or on the Internet, which is the same.
- Yes, manufacturers are doing everything they can to ensure that it does not cost consumers less and brings them A LOT MORE, but it is not inevitable and prices drop if we are interested. For example, the "tariff" price of new electric cars announced in the press is sometimes 10.000 € higher than that which can be negotiated in a dealership or on the Internet ... But this should not be known. In the meantime, if you innocently push the door of a dealership to buy an electric car, the seller will do everything possible to distract you from your project and will show you that it is not "reasonable" and that it is better that you buy a thermal much cheaper. This is normal, his commission is much higher on the sale of a thermal ...

You do not seek to replace a blind man with a one-eyed one, you put your hands in front of your eyes to say that you do not see ...

[Janic]

These arguments and arguments could be pursued without deciding the question.

You have to know what you want! If we stay there doing nothing, as you suggest, we will soon be a third world country.

The question is not to stay idle, but to know if all consumers are willing to switch to this mode of consumption without the artifice of premiums, preferential electricity rates, etc ... and therefore at a real price of product.
It is not therefore to say that this is better or worse than that, they are two alternatives with each its advantages and disadvantages.
That said, we should not consider this in a self-starter (we!) But look to find out if this alternative is reliable on a global level with so-called emerging countries that are the future major consumers of goods of all kinds and therefore thermal or electrical well heard. However, for the moment always, the thermal (which poses so the famous problem of global warming) will have done its irrattrapable work by an electrical substitution which is likely to pose other problems as the multiplication of nuclear or thermal power plants whose danger is relevant.

[gildas]

Hi Janic,

However, for the moment always, the thermal (which poses so the famous problem of global warming) will have done its irrattrapable work by an electrical substitution which is likely to pose other problems as the multiplication of nuclear or thermal power plants whose danger is relevant.

With this car it is not certain:
http://www.moteurnature.com/actu/2014/F ... energi.php

In this C-MAX with a battery of 7,6 kWh, it is possible to fully charge the battery in one day. One can with that roll theoretically 34 km. It's good because it's free!

[elephant]

Ah! The Tesla is superb, although I doubt that we can have ALL the performances at the same time and until the end of 8 years.

As for me, my car budget would be rather near the 10e of the Tesla price.

As for the battery replacement budget, it is nevertheless of the order of 7 hundred / km (my berlingo consumes about 9 hundred of oil per km)

It also remains to fit the ladder on the roof!

Nothing to do, living eco-friendly remains expensive: at least 2 good wages per household.

[I Citro]

The problem is that you think wrong ...

These arguments and arguments could be pursued without deciding the question.

You have to know what you want! If we stay there doing nothing, as you suggest, we will soon be a third world country.

The question is not to stay idle, but to know if all consumers are willing to switch to this mode of consumption without the artifice of premiums, preferential electricity rates, etc ... and therefore at a real price of product.

It is not a question of making all the consumers to this mode of consumption ... By cons it is well not to stay idle.

It is not therefore to say that this is better or worse than that, they are two alternatives with each its advantages and disadvantages.

Let's be clear: we must stop using vehicles to move behind them (1m3 and 1kg of gases, vapors and particles every minute, not some ridiculous grams of CO2 as you are made to believe).
That you make fun of it is understandable, but you breathe the junk of the vehicles that precede you ... I did not realize it myself before driving with the electricity ... It is unbearable ... Now Frequently I get out of sleep when I am or cross a vehicle that is too polluting (because it smokes or stinks). Since I no longer take the ring road bottled daily, I no longer suffer drowsiness that fell on me every day during my only trips on the ring road ... amazing, no.

That said, we should not consider this in a self-starter (we!) But look to find out if this alternative is reliable on a global level with so-called emerging countries that are the future major consumers of goods of all kinds and therefore thermal or electrical well heard.

Mail must stop thinking binary !!! There is no alternative! There is a mode of displacement that must be abandoned and replaced by a whole range of more appropriate and efficient modes of travel depending on the situation, as in the last century, before the automobile landed and competed not only with the horse, but walking, cycling and even the train. The car has become the archetype of unique thinking to move, while it represents, in France and globally, only a tiny part of travel.
To the point that the French are unable to believe this truth: There are more people who travel to electricity each day in France and around the world than people who move to oil ...
- The Metro in Ile de France and the SNCF transports every day 10 million people (not counting the other cities of France who have trams, subways, troleybus or electric buses).
- In the world there are one billion people who take a lift every day ...

... an electrical substitution that may pose other problems such as the proliferation of nuclear or thermal plants whose danger is topical.

Another misconception.
Nuclear power plants are not adapted to power electric cars because their production lacks flexibility, it takes several days to modulate the power of a nuclear power station while charging millions of electric cars at a fixed time when people have returned from work, will not work ... The solution lies in the synchronized development of renewable energies, smart grids (SMART GRIDS) and the shared development of storage systems ...
In the aftermath of the Japanese nuclear disaster, positive energy habitats were developed on which electric cars are connected to charge the grid and the energy produced by housing (photovoltaic + wind + cogeneration), and sometimes restore power to the network to smooth peaks of consumption (V2G), or production (G2V) that could cause the collapse of the network ...