Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science

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Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science




by thibr » 10/06/21, 21:15


Special episode of World Environment Day in which we will talk about the causes of planned obsolescence and think about alternative consumption models that avoid, in their very principle, the emergence of such behaviors. Do you think that the search for profit is opposed to environmental issues? think again! We will speak mainly of economy of functionality also called sale of use and economy of performance.

Some precisions:

No, I am not paid by Michelin or Xerox.

I could have insisted more on the point that I find the most important: that it is indeed the search for personal profit which goes in the direction of an improvement of the company in a model of economy of functionality.

In the sale of property, the search for profit translates into:

Sell ​​more, and therefore consume more, pollute more, reduce the wage bill (thus reduce purchasing power). It is a spiral that depletes resources and therefore goes in the direction of increasing prices while reducing purchasing power (which cannot economically last, in addition to its harmful effects)

In the sale of use (economy of functionality), the search for profit translates into:

Increase the life of the product, reduce the consumption of energy and raw materials, increase the wage bill. It is a virtuous cycle where the more we progress, the less the hourly costs and the consumption of primary resources are high. It is quite possible that the price decreases while giving more profits to the company and purchasing power to the employees, in addition to its positive effects.

I am counting on you to hyper (harass) Heureka to tell us more about these economic and micro economic aspects.
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Re: Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science




by eclectron » 11/06/21, 07:51

Not stupid, "capitalism" has found a way to survive by surfing the zeitgeist (public expectation, at least in part) and switch to healthy and sustainable.
The imposition of constraints, always unpleasant, being removed at least in part.
Why make a washing machine that does not pollute the water, if it is more economical for the builder to pass this hot potato to the community? There will therefore always be legislative constraints.

As underlined, the real healthy and lasting thing is indeed the death of capitalism, the death of the current economy, the death of the rentiers of the system so curiously that does not occur to them. : Lol:
There, with the economy of functionality, the order of things does not change, always the privileged rich, always the slaves who pay monthly for their functionalities, who pay for their subscriptions.
All is well in the best of all possible worlds. : Mrgreen:
For the slave, always need a salary and therefore always need opposite activity.
We are not going to pay people to do nothing all the same! : Mrgreen:
As everyone knows (or should know) the dematerialized activity does not exist.
This model is still growing, maybe less, but still growing materially.

And it's funny it's not the expectation that I see in people, of having to pay multiple subscriptions all their lives.
And what about the need to possess in order to be reassured?
I hear more of a desire for freedom from this kind of constraints. If we could....

Why not the real healthy and sustainable which would certainly require an overhaul of everything? : Mrgreen:
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Re: Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science




by Ahmed » 11/06/21, 15:44

Eclectron, it is true that there is a considerable naivety in claiming to resolve all the contradictions between divergent interests and current dead ends thanks to a miraculous "recipe" which would no longer make growth necessary while increasing the profits of companies and users! *
In part, the phenomenon described is sometimes observed: thus, for example, industrial gas cylinders which are rented ** are fitted with foolproof valves.
What is not at all convincing is the generalization to the global economic model. The examples cited to support the demonstration would need to be carefully questioned before subscribing: how could these companies simultaneously increase their profits, employ more workers and offer better services at lower cost? Especially if we consider that it is precisely the reduction in the wage bill that is the main lever of profitability ...
I see it as a rehash of the postulate ofAdam Smith, when, despairing of the virtue of men, he describes capitalism as a system capable of making universal egoism the key to everyone's happiness, without requiring the conscious will any longer and by the sole mechanical grace of the "invisible hand " of the market.
We could also see in this concept an evolution of the model which would thus take into account the limitation of resources, as well as in the time of the defunct USSR, the relative shortage of raw materials (absorbed by heavy industry and armaments) oriented consumer goods towards sustainable, easy to repair.
Of course, one can only doubt the relevance of this fairy tale which only works on paper (and on the sole condition of being very undemanding!), Because resulting from a completely superficial analysis of the functioning and the goals of the current economy.

* This simple fact would generate growth!
** The same goes for owned cylinders, since the standard is that they are interchangeable and it is in fact no longer the possession of an "arbitrary" cylinder.
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Re: Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science




by eclectron » 11/06/21, 18:09

Ahmed, not much to add.
You can confirm that it is the societal framework that channels the drifts of Man without virtue.
The true spiritual path * proposes to help to reveal what is not virtue in each one and consequently to leave the field free with the expression of the virtue which would solve ALL the problems. Jiddu Krishamurti for example.
I dreamed of it for a while but already couldn't do it myself : Lol: , I do not believe that this can be a realistic short term solution, alas.
I agree with Adam Smith on pessimism.
(* not the youtubes that I post here, which are only appetizers, sensitizations, openings, extracts, well not always for those who are already sensitized ...)

Consequently, we need a more virtuous societal framework than the current system of capitalism.
You who have read a lot, have you found authors offering more or less turnkey systems that seem more virtuous to you? tracks ?

Personally the gimmick of Dennis meadows: "Healthy and sustainable" inspires me a lot. It's so obvious ...
Considering the current situation, it seems to him far too late for the healthy and sustainable, so he changed his line and opted for "Resilience", which is no more than an adaptation of survival ...
To my knowledge, he has never gone further in specific proposals.

I still believe that it is possible to set up a healthy and sustainable system, at least on a small scale.
The first peoples in destitution do well there. : Wink:
It is enough to lower our requirements, reduce the needs, rationalize the needs.
There must be a way to place the cursor of the comfort of life between the hunter-gatherer and our expensive way of life in resources which one improperly calls economy! : roll:
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Re: Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science




by Ahmed » 11/06/21, 19:14

You write:
You can confirm that it is the societal framework that channels the drifts of Man without virtue.

That is not how I would phrase it. The man without virtue is the product of the particular societal framework in question here, insofar as those who persist in this direction would be penalized and those who conform to this anomie are systematically rewarded according to the criteria specific to the social synthesis. current.
Adam Smith did nothing but reflect the zeitgeist and essentialize it, which is quite common, often passes for a stroke of genius, but nevertheless constitutes a logical mistake. We must not forget that before writing "The Wealth of Nations", he "split" a book entitled "Theory of Moral Sentiments" where he tried to resolve the contradiction between morality and saving time. His conclusion, not extraordinary, was that the first was exercised in the private sphere, while the second was in the public sphere.
This pessimistic observation results from the conditions of the time, which had already seen the disappearance, not of morality, but of "common decency" which normally governs human relations in order to favor competition between all and all. It is obviously not a question of regretting an idealized past: the relations of personal domination have just been replaced by an abstract domination (under the aegis of "freedom") from which it is much more difficult to free oneself (a good despot). real can possibly be reversed). The abstract side of this domination appears clearly, beyond the slogans against the exploiting bosses, when the uberized self-entrepreneurs are reduced to exploiting themselves in order to survive ... : roll:
As for "turnkey" systems, sorry to disappoint you, but any system is, by definition, harmful (since it locks in its original definition) and we must turn away from hope, even on a purely theoretical basis. , of a simple substitution.

Only a common and conscious development of what would be desirable is possible and therefore does not prejudge the result. The "concern" being that the growth of inequalities goes against any democratic manifestation, since we can only discuss between equals (or not too unequal!).

I forgot; you write:
The first peoples in destitution do well there.

As your smiley suggests, "destitution" is a meaningless concept for these people. Some are however in difficult situations because, like many animal species, they are driven out of the territories where their life is possible under good conditions.
Sustainability is first and foremost a question of how much energy is dissipated. Even among the people most convinced of this, energy addiction remains a manifestation of this widespread alienation ...
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Re: Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science




by eclectron » 12/06/21, 10:39

Ahmed wrote: The man without virtue is the product of the particular societal framework in question here
It is not false but a man of a first people, a natural man, does not live in virtue either.
His mind is just as corrupted by his ego as ours.
Only his framework, the means at his disposal, make him seem more virtuous than us.
By "corrupt mind" I mean, self-centered, ready to lie to preserve a personal gain.
It is necessary to understand "spirit corrupted by its own interest", in short an ego very present in the center.
In a tribe, deception will be frowned upon by the community (local culture and morality) which will curb the initial selfish intention of the individual (calculation of interest, I eat this honey alone and then make myself look bad by the group. if I am discovered or I share it to show myself well? Whatever the choice it is an egoic calculation, based on the corruption of personal interest)
Non-virtue is naturally present in every human being.
You have to do a hell of a job of understanding, clearing the mind to leave the space of freedom to virtue. (27 years that I am on the spot in dilettante and nada! : Lol: ).
Some will say that it is impossible to be virtuous (resigned or easy position, no personal questioning), others, very few, epsilon, argue that it is possible and the only beneficial way for humanity .


Ahmed wrote: As for "turnkey" systems, sorry to disappoint you, but any system is, by definition, harmful (since it locks in its original definition) and we must turn away from hope, even on a purely theoretical basis. , of a simple substitution.
By system I mean a set of fairly broad rules / principles to follow, such as "healthy and sustainable" for example, which nevertheless offer a significant area of ​​freedom.
It is obviously necessary to show intelligence in the application of principles and not to fall into systematism. Otherwise we are paralyzed. We should stop breathing (CO2 : Lol: ), or even commit suicide en masse. : roll:
But "as healthy and sustainable as possible, rather than profitable at all costs", would be an outline of a system.
A guideline to try to follow, collectively, democratically.

For a while I thought direct democracy was possible on a large scale, like that of a country via current digital means.
In fact, digital exchanges are turning into a nightmare, with some exceptions or unless you already know people well.
An important part of non-verbal communication does not pass, the responsibility in the exchange that we have in front of a flesh individual is not present either.
I deduce that direct democracy must be done face-to-face (sometimes stormy too…) and therefore necessarily on a small scale.
Another point of view on the subject welcome ...

Ahmed wrote: Only a common and conscious development of what would be desirable is possible and therefore does not prejudge the result. The "concern" being that the growth of inequalities goes against any democratic manifestation, since we can only discuss between equals (or not too unequal!). .
Alas too true!

Ahmed wrote:
The first peoples in destitution do well there.

As your smiley suggests, "destitution" is a meaningless concept for these people. .
The smiley was for Western arrogance, "we are still no more idiots than these savages!" : Lol:
The bottom line is that we have the means (science and technology) that allow us to live more comfortably than them, while respecting living things, including humans.
Do we have the mentality, the intention ??? I feel that it is emerging, more than ever anyway, but is it sufficient and on time ???


Ahmed wrote:Sustainability is first and foremost a question of how much energy is dissipated. Even among the people most convinced of this, energy addiction remains a manifestation of this widespread alienation ...
And type of energy: If the energy is renewable or in unlimited quantity, healthy and sustainable over a long period. This last form does not yet exist. In practice, therefore, renewable energy remains.
Do not confuse quantity available and quantity used.
Only the human will, and the system that we have "chosen" *, dictates the use of quantity.
* as long as it is not refuted, it is because we have chosen it.
Currently there are no human pilots in the economy plane, just soulless rules but nothing prevents them from putting them back, via "healthy and sustainable as much as possible and with direct democracy". Which supposes a good level of information of the individuals exercising this direct democracy, yet another problem ...
By good level of information, I mean a sufficient level, above ignorance, therefore.
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Re: Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science




by Ahmed » 12/06/21, 11:31

On the first point, you make a good analysis of the nature of morality as a rule allowing harmonious cohabitation. It also exists in populations of social animals, which is not surprising ... The current appreciation of "virtue" is considerably altered by the inversion of values ​​and the cognitive dissociation existing between those, abstract. , which are proclaimed ostensibly and those, opposed and binding, which push for universal competition. The over-valuation of the ego is only a consequence of this state of affairs.
Without denying in the least the interest of spiritualities, the mode of personal development which is declined under two superficially opposed aspects also corresponds to this centering on the monad of the subject of the commodity. This mode is indeed observed in a company where individual performance is supposed to make the difference (without regard for the real subjectivity of the person), or in reaction, in an approach which would like to be emancipatory, but which is only constituted as a mirror. inverted, as a refuge for a diminution of being. This unfortunately condemns from the start. In addition, some take advantage of this disarray to reintroduce the commercial aspect to their benefit ...

On the second, I quite agree with the idea of ​​a guideline, with all the precautions that this requires, because, let us not forget, industrial society only forms a system by way of speaking and above all, a posteriori: in reality, it only relies on the iteration of a few very simple "lines of code", and this is what gives it this astonishing adaptive flexibility.

The point you raise about democracy is very real, which is why democracy has never existed, it is an ideal that remains to be built, or at least to be approached.

Regarding "comfort", it would already be necessary to define what is meant precisely by this. Not sure that your "savages" :P exchange theirs for ours ... I saw a short time ago a report where we saw animals in a zoo: they led an objectively very comfortable life, since they were regularly fed (with an appropriate diet). !), treated in the event of health concerns, without predators and thus assured of a much longer life than that of their congeners in the natural environment. However, I did not have the impression that it corresponded to their expectations, that there was something deeply artificial in this attempt to represent the living. I saw in it, beyond this simple observation, an allegory of the human condition, as a "voluntary" prisoner of a process of self-destruction and of the multiple regressions that this implies.

Regarding your last point, on the possibly unlimited nature of the energy, the difficulty would lie in determining the position of the cursor and a possible agreement on this subject. More fundamentally, the unlimited appears to contradict the desire for a voluntary limitation to the main motor (sic!) Of the negative modification of the World.
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Re: Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science




by Exnihiloest » 12/06/21, 19:55

Ahmed wrote:... The point you raise about democracy is very real, which is why democracy has never existed, it is an ideal that remains to be built, or at least to be approached.

Democracy exists, but has never been perfect. The idea that it remains to be built, therefore that there would be an end state for which we have the plan, is a dangerous utopia. Democracy, we have it and we perfect it.

Regarding "comfort", it would already be necessary to define what is meant precisely by this. Not sure that your "savages" :P exchange theirs for ours ... I saw a short time ago a report where we saw animals in a zoo: they led an objectively very comfortable life, since they were regularly fed (with an appropriate diet). !), treated in the event of health concerns, without predators and thus assured of a much longer life than that of their congeners in the natural environment. However, I did not have the impression that it corresponded to their expectations, that there was something deeply artificial in this attempt to represent the living. I saw in it, beyond this simple observation, an allegory of the human condition, as a "voluntary" prisoner of a process of self-destruction and of the multiple regressions that this implies.

These animals do not have a choice, but we do, we have it, especially us the wealthy have-haves in the West, everyone I see here, wealthy relative to the world average.
However, I do not see many people among Westerners, going to live as a nomad with the Maasaïs or in a hut with the Konsos.
Conversely, I see many Africans who come to Europe.
We have to believe that Westerners who complain are either faint-hearted, vilifying our modern societies but unable to get out of it, or bogus who are in fact rather satisfied with their lot.
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Re: Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science




by GuyGadeboisTheBack » 12/06/21, 19:59

Democracy, finally its caricature, we have it and we deviate it in favor of private interests (Plousios), to the detriment of the people (Demos).
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Re: Functional economy (Special World Environment Day) - Pass-science




by sen-no-sen » 12/06/21, 21:17

We do live in a democracy, yes but a democracy of market and opinion, so it would be fairer to speak marketing ochlocracy.
As a reminder, democracy is the power of the people ... the problem is that in our time and in our techno-industrial societies, the people have become an imaginary category ...
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