Warming up and purchasing power according to Jancovici (video)

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Supertux
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by Supertux » 03/01/08, 20:10

Hi Remundo,

and I maintain that 80% of the population will finance it

In any case, oil will have to be paid more for one day or another. So as much to pay it "artificially" more expensive today and that the tax money remains to pay for insulation and ENR rather than ending up paying dearly in 20 years as well, but that everything goes into the coffers of the emirates ...

Already, favorable tariff policies are being implemented in many countries for renewable kWh

In France, for electricity only, and electricity represents only 20% of energy consumption. So in the 80% that remains against the barrel: no chance. Besides, if all the electricity (and let's not talk about the remaining 80% ...) were produced with renewable "aided" would the state have the necessary budget? Taking this money with a carbon tax is no dumber than raising taxes or VAT.


I argue, but after each his point of view :P But in this story I have the impression that it is the word "tax" that is scary.
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by Remundo » 03/01/08, 22:32

Good evening Supertux,

OK for the "isolations" financed by tax money ... But all the same, it is the same people who would pay to isolate their hut in the absence of tax? Let's say the tax is an incentive ...

Have you thought that fuels could be created from solar? The simplest is of course H2, but many other ways are possible: biomass gasification, full-hydride electric / thermal car ... The solar potential has "the trunk" to absorb the manufacture of fuels in addition to the 'electricity.

The renewable sector is in any case economically viable without tax assistance from the State. And it will be more and more true in the years following the peak-oil.

Indeed, I don't really like this word "tax" because I know that in general, they are used for much more than the pretexts which give them birth ... :P
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Philippe Schutt
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by Philippe Schutt » 08/02/08, 20:15

First, the fact of taxing today a resource that will be rare in the future forces us to anticipate its scarcity, and therefore to delay a little bit the appearance of this rarity.
Then, with this dough the state can encourage the development of trades that will be needed in the future, and allow the industry concerned to be ahead of those of other countries.
To illustrate this point, see where the wind turbine manufacturers come from and relate to the policies of these countries.
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by Remundo » 08/02/08, 23:19

Good evening Philippe,

We can tax oil ... It remains to know how money is used. For the moment, he is fattening the state, which is redistributing it to win elections and to please Pierre, Paul and Jacqueline. : Evil:

Imagine, since 20 years, if only 10% of TIPP's revenue had been injected directly into the truly efficient renewable (biomass and hydraulics mainly and currently) ... : Idea:

There are others as you suggest who thought about it ...
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by Philippe Schutt » 09/02/08, 01:24

Yes, we can dream ...
However, this manna has been spent. it would have been necessary to sacrifice something else or increase the tax burden.
That a government seeks to please the greatest number seems to me quite normal, that is its reason for being. However, the greater number requires more purchasing power and considers ecology as an accessory. Should we ignore? to say that democracy is inadequate ...
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by Remundo » 09/02/08, 10:17

Hello Philippe,

And quite precisely, I think that a government "is not there to please the greatest number".

A government must decide and make decisions that are courageous and favorable to the general interest of the country. Quit not to be reelected. Make room for someone else who will do the same.

Very few politicians have this vision. There was one who embodied this, it is Raymond BARRE. It was the last to have imposed a slightly positive budget 30 years ago. Ah, what didn't we blame him !! "Unsustainable austerity policy", so on and of the best.

We can agree or disagree with his political orientations, but it is clear that the power did not fascinate him to the point of doing anything to hang on his seat.

As for 20 years, the right as the left have chosen the "pleasure", synonymous with ease and decadence, we are starting to see the results: the "average" French no longer make ends meet and 40 Billion Euros of trade deficit in 2007: it is historic, considerable, catastrophic and revealing ...

You will grant me that distributing purchasing power from a fuel tax do not distribute anything because they are the same who pay and who receive ... I would even add that in the meantime, "the deputies take their commission", but that is a little demago on my part.

Personally, I do not like to give alms to the state, and I do not like the state distributing coins to the French. I prefer that the state make every effort to ensure that the French generate their wages by their work, as in Germany or England, while at the same time allowing the State to reduce its debt. Because the current system is nothing but beggars reaching out to the other beggar: the French and the State.
These are measures that create no wealth, they are only financially sterile Franco-French transfers.

Precisely on oil, investment in the renewable would have generated a lot of wealth in detaching hydrocarbons, especially since the oil spill and this is just the beginning.

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by Philippe Schutt » 09/02/08, 11:19

In reality it is rather "Place for another who will not do the same".

Tax on one side to help another directs the effort in the desired direction. there is no wealth created at this stage.
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by SixK » 09/02/08, 11:28

Investing in renewable energy in a country funded by Total Fina Elf : Mrgreen:

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by Christophe » 09/02/08, 12:36

Remundo wrote:Because the current system is nothing but beggars reaching out to the other beggar: the French and the State.


Note a bit off topic but I would like to bounce on your proposal. I think that the state (French as well as most European states) is not a beggar but an exploiter... have you ever seen a man who takes you more than 80% of what you earn? And yes...for some time now I have been wondering about what really remains "in the pocket" (his or that of his children) of a "citizen" after a life of work.

I haven't done a "typical" calculation yet (is this just possible ??) ...

Quick example: VAT, op is already 1/5 of "given" to the State ...
1/3 on average for taxes and direct charges on income (gross -> net I'm not even talking about employer charges 40% of gross because the employee is often not even aware of it), let's say 1/10 for petroleum product taxes ... what else? Ah yes the famous inheritance tax ... and op still 50% lost on the heritage ...

At the end of a life, how much? On 100 € that you have one day earned, 70 to 80 € come back directly or indirectly and sooner or later into the state ...

If we base ourselves on the salary paid by your employer and according to your tax rate it must go up to 80 to 95 euros ... : Cheesy:

Funny, after "they" still dare to complain about "bankruptcy" ... no, but who the fuck are we?

If jmegoure say it to me and correct :)
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by toto65 » 09/02/08, 13:17

Compared to your remark
I wonder about the state. What is the point of promoting product manufacturing abroad? Because as your example shows it he wins more to make on the spot since everything returns to him ...

Not to foresee is to suffer a little
In my opinion, the carbon tax would be a rebalance, the liberalization of markets. If we integrate the gray energy used for its manufacture and transport.
In the same way photovoltaic panels would be sanctioned by this same tax since 40% of their price is coming from their energy-consuming fabrications.
A product manufactured at low cost in China then imported and put on the same shelf as French products.
But let's go further and imagine in the same way a social tax.

The misallocation of taxes is a political problem. A very bad management of our common heritage. But not a problem on the idea itself.
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