The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.

Warming and Climate Change: causes, consequences, analysis ... Debate on CO2 and other greenhouse gas.
User avatar
GuyGadebois
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6532
Registration: 24/07/19, 17:58
Location: 04
x 982

Re: The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.




by GuyGadebois » 14/10/19, 19:54

Janic wrote:
As for your "food holocaust by taste of blood", I prefer to refrain from any comment ...
It is better, because there, it does not revolt you! : Evil:

Obviously you still speak without knowing.
0 x
“It is better to mobilize your intelligence on bullshit than to mobilize your bullshit on intelligent things. (J.Rouxel)
"By definition the cause is the product of the effect". (Tryphion)
"360 / 000 / 0,5 is 100 million and not 72 million" (AVC)
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749

Re: The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.




by sen-no-sen » 14/10/19, 21:34

dede2002 wrote:* To some humans, hence our unequal society ...


By definition, a large-scale society tends to become naturally unequal. This tendency is related to the multiplication of technological tools and their implications for maximizing energy dissipation (profit what).
The resulting hyperspecialization tends to compartmentalize social space into different categories of agents. The agents most likely to promote economic expansion are remunerated in proportion to their capacity to produce abstract values ​​(1).
It is for this reason that the Meritocracy is at half mast, it is no longer excellence or risk taking (2) which is remunerated but the ability to replicate the dominant process.
There follows a social stratification, historically called class, categorizing their agents by their capacity to dissipate energy, what is commonly called "purchasing power".
The process logically tends towards a wealth condensation(3) towards the highest strata, this results in social tensions but also imitation behaviors of an ascending nature (the less affluent singling out the richest, in fact allowing those who hold wealth ... to become more rich!).

(1) We understand why the wealthiest individuals work in the fields of finance, energy or high tech.
(2) By excellence I mean the degree of gestural or intellectual mastery. By risk taking I mean risk or strict sense: as with firefighters or soldiers, on the other hand risk taking among financiers is very well paid!
(3) The phenomenon of wealth condensation http://www.francois-roddier.fr/?p=945
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
realistic ecology
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 208
Registration: 21/06/19, 17:48
x 61

Re: The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.




by realistic ecology » 15/10/19, 09:03

sen-no-sen wrote:
realistic ecology wrote:By ignoring the innate behaviors that are one of the important causes of these phenomena, we dismiss the possibility of finding solutions.


I have studied bio-sociology enough to understand the question of innate characters ... thank you.
But our innate characters are not modifiable over such short periods of time and the temptation to "tinker" them is not currently possible, and if it were to become possible to do so it could spell the end of our species.

I notice that we are going in circles, with a part of overinterpretation compared to what is written.
Who intends to tinker with the human genome? Certainly not me.
Who does not admit that cultures also weigh on our behavior? Certainly not me.
it is good countermeasures that we need today, much more anyway than a plethora of invasive technologies.

We need "Countermeasures" indeed. But it is not enough to beg them to make it work. The mechanisms of global warming have been described for decades, and the warnings are increasingly urgent:
- 2008: The hope of escaping global warming was not yet lost:
“It is indeed an energy revolution that we need. […]
households, businesses and motorists will have to change the way they consume energy. [...]
Resolute action by the public authorities could help bring this revolution to fruition. "(WEO 2008)
At that time, the problem was still conditional: "the public authorities could ..."
Since then, reports on the climate follow one another, the conditional has disappeared, global warming is now in the present indicative.
- 2011: “Measures are going in the right direction, but the chances of reaching the 2 ° C target are shrinking. "(WEO 2011)
- 2012: “Successive editions of this [WEO] report have shown that as the years go by, the goal of limiting global warming to 2 ° C becomes more and more expensive and difficult to achieve. "(WEO 2012)
- 2016, after the famous COP21 of 2015 which was nevertheless sold as a success for the climate: "The current commitments do not allow the temperature increase to be limited to less than 2 ° C" (WEO 2016 Presentation)

In ten years the whole range of possibilities has been lowered: "It would be possible" ... "The possibilities are diminishing" ... "It is more and more difficult" ... "It is no longer possible".
Can we escape global warming?

It is frightening to see all this, but denying it denying the innate component and hoping for miraculous countermeasures does not solve the problem.
Religions have influence, mainly by imposing social codes. But beyond the good intentions proclaimed, they did not have massive and lasting effects on trends with a high proportion of innate people: violence, consumption, exclusion ... they did not have a great influence on the behaviors of which we're talking about: having a fuller plate, a bigger field, a bigger house, a more luxurious car. Only a few rare hermits have been affected in this area.
0 x
User avatar
realistic ecology
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 208
Registration: 21/06/19, 17:48
x 61

Re: The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.




by realistic ecology » 15/10/19, 09:06

Ahmed wrote:This tendency which would push "to consume" everything, immediately "is not observed in predators in a natural environment;

Obviously, there are physiological limits; when the belly is full to crack and drags on the ground, it is necessary to digest.

The fact that there are some egalitarian societies, under special conditions does not cancel the general case that history tells and that we observe almost everywhere today.

And beware of our fantasies about primitive societies. One of the last tribes perhaps, that of the "flower men" (former head cutters), lives isolated in the forest of the island of Siberut off Sumatra. A book has been dedicated to them: Mentawai, the island of flower men (Romain Pages editions). The authors, Hubert Forestier, archaeologist and researcher at IRD and Dominique Guillaud, geographer at IRD, who have observed these companies for years, commented during a radio program:

« 
- Did you perceive this way of living as a possible ideal society, or is it just a city dweller's fantasy?
- It's a pure city dweller's fantasy. Because you really have to go and spend a night in Siberut to realize that it is very difficult to live there.
We see certain people from Siberut, certain members of certain groups, who now refuse to fall back into the forest, who go towards the coast […] and who are in development and in modernity, for reasons of modernity, and of want, quite simply, and to live well and to live better, because we do not live there very well, even if they are people well adapted to the forest and even if those who have decided to stay there are there relatively happy, I would say. "
0 x
User avatar
realistic ecology
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 208
Registration: 21/06/19, 17:48
x 61

Re: The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.




by realistic ecology » 15/10/19, 09:14

sen-no-sen wrote:By definition, a large society tends to become naturally unequal.]

It seems to me that there has always been a tribal chief, even in the smallest tribes.
As in a pack of wolves of 20 individuals.
With almost always the unequaled man - woman.
0 x
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.




by Janic » 15/10/19, 09:48

With almost always the unequaled man - woman.
like the matriarchal tribes. Except that, in general, it is the most competent who are elected to preserve the pack, not the most opportunistic.

@guygadebois
Janic wrote:
As for your "food holocaust by taste of blood", I prefer to refrain from any comment ...
It is better, because there, it does not revolt you! : Evil:
Obviously you still speak without knowing.
That's right, no more than you do about me. I just notice the double standard, which is not specific to you, with the defenders of small beasts, like the biggest, against their planetary holocaust, but except when they are on their plate where a kind of loss of consciousness, a black hole, which does not resume until they leave the table.
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963

Re: The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.




by Ahmed » 15/10/19, 10:48

ecology, you write:
The fact that there are some egalitarian societies, under special conditions does not cancel the general case that history tells and that we observe almost everywhere today.

Exactly! History tells only the recent period, that is to say a derisory fraction of the human tribulations and when one speaks about the last traditional societies it is only a remainder of what civilization has not yet completely destroyed (which confirms the testimony that you then produce). Your case general is therefore only a peculiarity ...

And;
It seems to me that there has always been a tribal chief, even in the smallest tribes.

I'm not so sure, but anyway, what matters is the status of this leader and on this last point, I advise you to read the first * article of "The political condition" by Marcel Gauchet which describes a company whose chief does not run anything, but is completely at the service of the others (it is rather amusing!). More generally, if the head is necessary to maintain the equality of the members, where is the contradiction?
Furthermore, I do not necessarily equate primitive society with ideal society. Conversely, an industrial civilization ** is necessarily both unequal and destructive, therefore unsustainable over time ...

* This book is a collection of various articles, quite heterogeneous and it is the first which seems interesting to me ...
** They were all to varying degrees, but never like ours.
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749

Re: The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.




by sen-no-sen » 15/10/19, 11:01

realistic ecology wrote:I notice that we are going in circles, with a part of overinterpretation compared to what is written.
Who intends to tinker with the human genome? Certainly not me.
Who does not admit that cultures also weigh on our behavior? Certainly not me.


Yes, but your comments imply that our innate characters would condemn us to a certain fatality. Therefore if, as you say, it is hardly possible to sufficiently change our behavior through culture, what do you offer ???

realistic ecology wrote:It seems to me that there has always been a tribal chief, even in the smallest tribes.
As in a pack of wolves of 20 individuals.


Beware of the myth of the alpha male! Among wolves there is an "alpha couple" which exerts its domination on its offspring, the pack is generally a large family rather than a clan composed of oppressors and oppressed.
It quickly creates an order of precedence in the group, but it is above all a balanced hierarchy which excludes excessively violent behavior which would endanger the social structure.
It is more or less the same in monkeys, most of the theses formulated on hierarchical supremacy were carried out on animals in captivity.
Ultra-violent behavior exists but is observed in a zoo and is induced by the conditions of detention. Obviously, the same can be seen in humans in incarceration ... or society.

With almost always the unequaled man - woman.

Be careful not to project our current conception onto the past.
Equality is a central term in so-called liberal democracies, but what does gender equality mean in time?
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963

Re: The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.




by Ahmed » 15/10/19, 11:19

It is more or less the same in monkeys, most of the theses formulated on hierarchical supremacy were carried out on animals in captivity.
Ultra-violent behavior exists, but is observed in the zoo and is induced by the conditions of detention. Obviously, we find the same thing in humans in incarceration ... or society.

I bounce on this text to make the link with the following paragraph: because it is the question of gender who is at the origin of these theses. In fact, the scientists who study the behavior of animals were originally from humans and therefore had sufficient funds to make their observations in enclosed spaces. Then appeared sisters who, not benefiting from the same prerogatives, were forced to carry out their research in situ, in conditions certainly less comfortable, but clearly more in line with the normal behavior of the species. This was particularly the case with wolves and various species of monkeys. And it was a real revolution in the field.

Among wolves there is an "alpha couple" which exerts its domination over its offspring, the pack is generally a large family rather than a clan made up of oppressors and oppressed.

It should be emphasized that the hierarchy is above all functional and responds to the survival of the group under conditions of great stress from the outside environment. On the other hand, functions evolve during the life of an individual and his capacities (in a "direction" * as in the other).

* Note that it is our subjectivity that introduces meaning!
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
dede2002
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1111
Registration: 10/10/13, 16:30
Location: Geneva countryside
x 189

Re: The planet is burning and we are watching our smartphones.




by dede2002 » 15/10/19, 15:31

sen-no-sen wrote:
dede2002 wrote:We note all the same that all animals flee from man, whether he is hungry or not.


Go tell that to crabs! : Mrgreen:


Ah yes... : Lol:
I was thinking of gazelles grazing near lions, or birds cleaning the teeth of crocodiles. Once I found myself face to face with a crocodile, he was more afraid than me!
So I rephrase: we notice that most wild vertebrates flee from humans, even elephants. If it's written in their genes, it makes you think that humans have been hungry all the time :?:
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Climate Change: CO2, warming, greenhouse effect ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 120 guests