Renewable energy, the example of China?

[sicetaitsimple]

 An order of magnitude, with data from 2011:
- Or a theoretical "PV" photovoltaic panel producing 100 kWh annually.
- It took 400 kWh of electricity to manufacture it.
- If the manufacturing is done in China, these 400 kWh of electricity will emit 360 kg of CO2.
- For 30 years (approximate lifespan of current panels), this panel will produce 3 kWh.
- This panel installed in France will save 3 kWh of French electricity, which "emits" 000g of CO42 per / kWh.
- The Chinese panel used in France will therefore save 3000 * 42g / kWh = 126 kg of CO2
  

Point by point:
- no, the energy return time of a PV panel is not 4 years, but 2 to 3, of course depending on where it is installed.
- no, China does not emit 900gCO2 / kWh (360/400)
- yes, around 30000kWh on average in France over 30 years, more in other countries.
-No, it will primarily replace fossil production, today and tomorrow almost as gas in France, even if there is a little coal today.

[Bardal]

@ realistic ecology

Unstoppable reasoning, even if the figures given are somewhat dated (some technical progress has reduced the weight of the gray energy of PV panels); and which deserves to be nuanced, even in France (see below); incidentally, it is easy to note that ground PV plants lead to incomparably greater soil artificialisation than a nuclear power plant (1 kWhpv / year occupies 6m2, 1 kWhnuc / year occupies 0,0001 m2) and the use of metals (rare and less rare) more than 100 times greater; essential when we see the shortage of minerals looming over the very near horizon, as well as that of agricultural or natural land.

That said, in an intertropical climate, as a substitute for petroleum or coal or gas, the use of PV is justified; or that of wind power, which has the same drawbacks (like all very "diluted" energies), which is just as justified in the trade winds zone. We can also wonder why the overseas departments remain essentially supplied by petroleum power stations (which artificially increase the CO2 content of electricity in France.

Recall that nuclear electricity in France weighs - tied with hydraulics - about 6g of CO2 / kWh, according to figures from the Paul Scherrer Institute, little suspect of bias in this area. Replacing coal with PV makes sense (but with limits), replacing nuclear with PV or wind has no meaning.

Bad ...

[moinsdewatt]

China is commissioning a new 50 MW concentrated solar tower installation in Xinjiang.

The reflectors have the particularity of being pentagonal.

Xinjiang's first concentrated solar power plant operational

December 30, 2019 evwind

The first solar thermal power plant in northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region went into operation Sunday night.

The 50-megawatt concentrated solar power plant is located in Naomaohu Township, eastern Xinjiang's city of Hami. Construction of the project began in October 2017 by Energy China.

The concentrating solar power project can achieve an annual power supply of 198.3 million kWh, saving 61,900 tonnes of standard coal annually, which is equivalent to reducing emissions of about 61.89 tonnes of sulfur dioxide, 61.89 tonnes of nitrogen oxides, 19.84 tonnes of soot and 154,800 tons of carbon dioxide.

The solar thermal power plant adopted a “light-heat-electricity” power generation mode. The CSP project works by using tens of thousands of mirrors to concentrate sunlight on a receiver at the top of the tower to create a temperature above 800 degrees Celsius.

Steam with a temperature of over 500 degrees Celsius will then be generated through the heat transfer medium to drive a turbine to produce electricity.

The plant is able to generate power 24/7 through the use of molten salt that absorbs the heat, allowing the station to maintain the high temperature, even without a constant stream of sunlight.







.......

https://www.evwind.es/2019/12/30/xinjia ... onal/72831

[moinsdewatt]

Related to this post of April 28, 2019 http://www.oleocene.org/phpBB3/viewtopi ... 0#p2283340

China largest 100 MW parabolic trough Concentrated Solar Power plant connected to the grid

January 21, 2020 evwind

CSNP Royal Tech Urat 100MW Parabolic Trough Concentrated Solar Power Project was successfully connected to the gird at 22:49 pm on January 8th, 2020. Following the first CGN Delingha 50MW parabolic trough solar thermal project which was connected to the grid in October 2018, the CSNP project became the second parabolic trough Concentrating Solar Power demonstration project, and the first 100MW large-scale parabolic trough CSP plant in China.






With the total investment of around RMB 2.9 billion, the 100MW parabolic trough CSP project is equipped with 375 PT loops and 10 hours' molten salt thermal energy storage system. The annual electricity generation is expected to be 350GWh.
......

https://www.evwind.es/2020/01/21/china- ... grid/73162

[realistic ecology]

 An order of magnitude, with data from 2011:
- Or a theoretical "PV" photovoltaic panel producing 100 kWh annually.
- It took 400 kWh of electricity to manufacture it.
- If the manufacturing is done in China, these 400 kWh of electricity will emit 360 kg of CO2.
- For 30 years (approximate lifespan of current panels), this panel will produce 3 kWh.
- This panel installed in France will save 3 kWh of French electricity, which "emits" 000g of CO42 per / kWh.
- The Chinese panel used in France will therefore save 3000 * 42g / kWh = 126 kg of CO2
  

Point by point:
- no, the energy return time of a PV panel is not 4 years, but 2 to 3, of course depending on where it is installed.
- no, China does not emit 900gCO2 / kWh (360/400)
- yes, around 30000kWh on average in France over 30 years, more in other countries.
-No, it will primarily replace fossil production, today and tomorrow almost as gas in France, even if there is a little coal today.

I explained that I took the figures for 2011 because they correspond to the date of manufacture of the panels used to build the Cestas park which we boast of: "the largest photovoltaic park in Europe", inaugurated in 2015 in France, including the panels were made in China.
We can skimp on the figures, however your figure of 360 / 400g / CO2 / kWh in China is false: you are giving a figure lower than the (already very bad) "performance" of Germany, which is hardly credible.
The Ademe indicates 766 g / CO2 / kWh (http://www.bilans-ges.ademe.fr/document ... r_pays.htm )

You are picky about knowing what electricity will be replaced by photovoltaic panels in France. In fact as long as there are few panels and there are still a few fossil power plants in France, I suppose that the network managers will choose to reduce the share of fossil power plants first, when the panels produce.
But we want to eliminate fossil power plants in France by replacing them with wind turbines and PV panels. Continuing this momentum we will have PV panels which will replace low carbon nuclear electricity - or low carbon wind power.
Regardless of the electricity it replaces, the theoretical panel that I considered, made in China and producing in France, will have "cost" 360 Kg of CO2 to produce 3000 kWh, or 120g / kWh - against less than 10g for nuclear power, all inclusive.
This to realize that the voltaic photo is not CO2-free, we cannot live only on sun and fresh water.

Can renewable energies replace fossil fuels alone

[sicetaitsimple]

however your figure of 360 / 400g / CO2 / kWh in China is wrong: you give a figure lower than the (already very bad) "performance" of Germany, it is not very credible.

Misunderstanding linked to a blurry drafting on my part: I spoke of less than 900g / kWh, which corresponded to your values ​​(360kg of CO2 divided by 400kWh)

[realistic ecology]

[quote = "sicetaitsimple"] [/ quote]
OK

[ENERC]

To apply for CRE4 calls for tenders, a gray energy of less than 700 kg CO2 eq per kWp is required (see page 16 of the AO).

Longi (a Chinese manufacturer producing almost 25% of the world PV market) has been certified compatible with the clauses of CRE4 (public tender). Source https://www.lechodusolaire.fr/longi-a-r ... e-carbone/

At 700 kg eq of CO2, 1 kWp of solar in Lyon will produce 30 MWh over 30 years, counting the loss of 0,5% per year.
The CO2 balance is therefore 23g of CO2 per kWh (for panels alone - without inverters, transformers, power lines, etc.)

[sicetaitsimple]

You are picky about knowing what electricity will be replaced by photovoltaic panels in France.

I am not picky! But if the subject is CO2 emissions from PV, it seems important to me to know which production is replacing it!

To simplify, in Europe and in the world it is coal or gas, with some very vague exceptions (Norway, Iceland, ...) which are almost 100% of non-carbon electric production.

Comparing the carbon footprint of a PV panel per kWh over its lifespan (whatever its value) with the annual average of emissions from French electricity production makes no sense.

Where I agree is that if the goal is to reduce CO2 emissions, it is certainly not in France that it is the most effective to install.